Wonderful!
in [Physics]
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From: Inertial on 4 Jan 2010 23:11 "spudnik" <Space998(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message news:fc84c8fb-0a19-42f9-8538-21e29af14abd(a)r12g2000vbm.googlegroups.com... Please don't top-post .. its poor newsgroup etiquette. is that too difficult for you to do .. as it makes following threads and seeing who you are responding to much more difficult.
From: spudnik on 4 Jan 2010 23:31 > Please don't top-post .. its poor newsgroup etiquette. is that too > difficult for you to do .. as it makes following threads and seeing who you > are responding to much more difficult. that is an inadequate "reason" to "not top-post;" hwy in Hell, not?
From: Inertial on 4 Jan 2010 23:46 "spudnik" <Space998(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message news:a2cee165-a5d5-4431-b750-67b8115ccb1b(a)q16g2000vbc.googlegroups.com... >> Please don't top-post .. its poor newsgroup etiquette. is that too >> difficult for you to do .. as it makes following threads and seeing who >> you >> are responding to much more difficult. > > that is an inadequate "reason" to "not top-post;" It is a very good "reason" to "not top-post". > hwy in Hell, not? Thanks for not top-posting. Keep up the good work.
From: Inertial on 4 Jan 2010 23:47 "spudnik" <Space998(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message news:85b7db75-d6eb-4f98-94ab-99a2a51d8d8f(a)1g2000vbe.googlegroups.com... > on the wayside, I am not "top-posting;" Yes .. you are STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING STOP TOP POSTING
From: mpc755 on 5 Jan 2010 08:45
On Jan 4, 8:47 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Jan 4, 8:21 pm, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) > wrote: > > > > > mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> writes: > > >On Jan 4, 8:01 pm, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) > > >wrote: > > >> mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> writes: > > >> >You are once again missing the point. > > > >> It is you who misses the point. Do the people in the boat get splashed > > >> first by the wave from the block in front, the block in the rear, or both > > >> at the same time? > > > >> I'm sure you'll frame jump to a frame stationary to the water, but don't; > > >> I'm talking what the people in the boat see. > > >The people in the boat see the wave hit the front of the boat first. > > > So they will see the events as nonsimultaneous. Period. > > Actually if they hold a mirror and watch both cement blocks hit the > water, they will SEE the events as being simultaneous. > > The people in the boat are not allowed to factor in the fact that they > know the boat is moving towards the waves propagating towards the > front of the boat and moving away from the waves propagating towards > the back of the boat when they determine the simultaneity of the > cement blocks entering the water? > > The people in the boat are not allowed to factor in the fact that they > know the boat is moving relative to the water the cement blocks were > dropped into? > > > >If cement blocks are dropped off the front and the back of a boat > > >100ft from the boat, do you measure to the end of the outriggers in > > >order to determine how far the waves travel to the boat? > > > _In the reference frame of the boat_, yes. (Important distinction!) You > > can frame jump to a different frame and get a different answer from the > > guy on the shore, of course. > > You don't frame jump and get a different answer than the guy on the > shore. You don't frame jump at all. You calculate when the cement > blocks hit the water based upon the waves from the cement blocks > propagating through the water. You factor in the fact that you are in > a boat moving relative to the water. You factor in the length of the > outriggers which lets you know how far the boat was from the cement > blocks when the cement blocks entered the water. You factor in the > difference in time between the front waves hitting the boat and the > back waves hitting the boat. You conclude the cement blocks hit the > water simultaneously, just like the guy on the shore did. > > If you refuse to allow the people in the boat the ability to use the > fact that they know how fast the boat is moving relative to the water > when determining the simultaneity of the cement blocks hitting the > water, then this 'conversation' is over. The Observer on the boat is going to determine the simultaneity of the cement blocks entering the water based on the following information: The Observer on the boat knows the speed of the boat relative to the water. The Observer on the boat knows the distance the cement blocks are from the boat on the outriggers at the time the cement blocks enter the water. The Observer on the boat knows the speed the waves propagate in the water. The Observer on the boat knows the difference in time from the waves hitting the front of the boat and the waves hitting the back of the boat. Do you agree with me that even if the waves from the cement blocks do not hit the boat simultaneously, the Observer on the boat has enough information to determine if the cement blocks entered the water simultaneously? Do you agree with me that the Observer on the boat is able to use the fact that the boat is moving relative to the water when determining the simultaneity of the blocks entering the water? The Observer on the boat knows the boat is moving towards the wave from the cement block dropped at the front of the boat and knows the boat is moving away from the wave from the cement block dropped at the back of the boat and uses this information to determine the simultaneity of the cement blocks entering the water even though the waves from the cement blocks do not hit the boat simultaneously. If you agree with the above, and the Observer on the boat is able to determine the cement blocks entered the water simultaneously even though the waves from the cement blocks did not hit the boat simultaneously, then for an Observer at M on a dock who is equi- distant from where the cement blocks entered the water, the Observer at M on the dock also concludes the cement blocks entered the water simultaneously because the cement blocks entered the water equi- distant from M and the waves from the cement blocks reached M simultaneously. We can't go back to any math or anything else until we agree, or agree to disagree, with the above. Forget the frames of reference for a second and just think about this logically from the perspective of an Observer on the boat and what it means to the Observer at M on the dock if the Observer on the boat concludes the cement blocks entered the water simultaneously as I have described above. The Observer on the boat must determine the simultaneity of the cement blocks entering the water with respect to the water because the waves propagate through the water. You really need to step back and understand the gedanken conceptually before jumping into the math. You first have to understand if the Observer on the boat determines the cement blocks entered the water simultaneously, and the cement blocks were equi-distant from the Observer at M on the dock when they entered the water, then the waves reach the Observer at M simultaneously. You have to understand the waves do not have to reach the boat simultaneously for the Observer on the boat to determine the cements blocks entered the water simultaneously based on the available information. |