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From: Paul Carpenter on 24 May 2010 06:52
In article <1274684612.909547(a)nntp.aceinnovative.com>,
nothere(a)onearth.com says...
> > These devices are not worth your time and energy to try to use. Get a
> > low cost Spartan-3A board and use the free ISE Webpack software.
> >
> > Ed McGettigan
>
> Id like to build a board around these chips (simple projects to aid the
> learning process - which is not limited to hdl digital design but board
> manufacturing as well).

Well you are looking at small FPGA/large CPLD then for HDL language, get
yourself afew schmart boards which make TQFP and similar easier for hobby
or learning process that suit the available PLD/FPGA devices you can get.

Use the available software Xilinx/Altera/Lattice/.......

> More "modern" fpgas come in formfactors that make it all but impossible
> to solder at home.

There are variants in TQFP, that can be hand soldered using Schmart
boards or get a demo board.

> The xc2xxx and xc3xxx chips come in plcc68/84 arrangements. I can buy plcc
> to dip sockets cheap from many online electronic retailers as well as
> ebay.

More devices are available in TQFP.

> I did something like these for the xc9xxxx CPLD's which are still
> supported in xilinx webpack software
>
> Listen, it would really help if I can buy XACT. I dont need support, just
> the software. If its reached end-of-life, I assume you guys would post it
> AS IS on some ftp server link right?
>
> For what its worth future projects that advance past what am working on
> would benefit from the spartan series ...

Then get the Spartan demo board now and don't waste your money on dead
ends.

Schmart boards are easy to find, hust do a google search.

--
Paul Carpenter | paul(a)pcserviceselectronics.co.uk
<http://www.pcserviceselectronics.co.uk/> PC Services
<http://www.pcserviceselectronics.co.uk/fonts/> Timing Diagram Font
<http://www.gnuh8.org.uk/> GNU H8 - compiler & Renesas H8/H8S/H8 Tiny
<http://www.badweb.org.uk/> For those web sites you hate
From: Herbert Kleebauer on 24 May 2010 11:28
fpgahobbyist wrote:
>
> > These devices are not worth your time and energy to try to use. Get a
> > low cost Spartan-3A board and use the free ISE Webpack software.

> Id like to build a board around these chips (simple projects to aid the
> learning process - which is not limited to hdl digital design but board
> manufacturing as well).
>
> More "modern" fpgas come in formfactors that make it all but impossible
> to solder at home.

Seems hobbyists are no market in these days. Sure, they maybe only buy
10 pieces, but if this is done by many people then this my become still
a big quantity. I really would like to see a FPGA in PLCC84 package
with 5 V I/O voltage (and maybe an additional smaller core voltage).
There are still much older TTL gates so why shouldn't there also be a
XC3195 (including the developement software).


> The xc2xxx and xc3xxx chips come in plcc68/84 arrangements. I can buy plcc
> to dip sockets cheap from many online electronic retailers as well as
> ebay.
>
> I did something like these for the xc9xxxx CPLD's which are still
> supported in xilinx webpack software
>
> Listen, it would really help if I can buy XACT. I dont need support, just
> the software. If its reached end-of-life, I assume you guys would post it
> AS IS on some ftp server link right?

I really can understand you, but it's not so simple to get
a working Viewlogic/XACT system. You will need a DOS-PC
(a real DOS, not a DOS box in Windows) a graphics card
which provides the graphic mode Viewlogic needs and a
three button V24 mouse. And then you need the original
software because both, Viewlogic and XACT use a parallel
port dongle (but this should be the smallest problems,
because they seem to be simple passive dongles of the first
generation). But on the other side you will get a professional
system (ok, Viewlogic was quite expensive compared to the
free Webpack). We still have a laboratory course were we use
Vielogic/XACT using a XC3195 FPGA. And we have saved a few old
PCs and V24 mouses as a replacement because the course will
die when we run out of old hardware. And we can't convert
it to the actual ISE software, because then we would need
twice the time for the course which simple isn't available.

We have converted a simpler course (implementation of an
extremely simple CPU in about 10 hours) using a DARNAW1
board and ISI9 (schematic entry, not VHDL). This design
is so simple that you nearly can't make any design error,
but still the students now need at least 50% more time
to finish the course. But at least this can be used as
a good example what happens if you let software engineers
develop software. The Viewlogic system seems was written
by hardware engineers to support their daily work. When
the system become popular (despite it's prices), software
engineers where hired and that seems was the end of
Vielogic (I installed the Windows version of Vielogic,
but removed it immediately). Every software engineer should
be forced to work whit his product for a few month, then
we would have much better software.
From: glen herrmannsfeldt on 24 May 2010 12:28
In comp.arch.fpga John Adair <g1(a)enterpoint.co.uk> wrote:
> I'd second Ed's opinion. These devices were released circa 20-25 years
> ago and their only useful place now is a museum. Almost anyone that
> does have software for these will have a reason like long term product
> maintainence and they are unlikely to let go the software.

When I first knew about FPGAs, about 15 years ago, XC2000 devices
were still in the book, but no-one I knew used them.

I believe that Xilinx still has software for XC4000 devices on
their web site, and I might even believe that some would still
use them. If you want a hobbyist device, go for XC4000 series.

-- glen
From: fpgahobbyist on 24 May 2010 13:19
> Seems hobbyists are no market in these days. Sure, they maybe only buy
> 10 pieces, but if this is done by many people then this my become still
> a big quantity. I really would like to see a FPGA in PLCC84 package with
> 5 V I/O voltage (and maybe an additional smaller core voltage). There
> are still much older TTL gates so why shouldn't there also be a XC3195
> (including the developement software).

I completely agree. I have done a lot of projects, some I have sold, some
I have given away. Its great to be able to design/develop without a HUGE
investment in manufacturing tools (for smd parts)

This is another reason I maintain a large stock of 22v10 in dip and plcc
form along with an assorted collection of 8bit micros in dip form as well.

Lately I have been trying to get a hold of the xc95xxx CPLD's and the
Altera EPM71XX parts.

Guess Ill have to dump these xc2018/30xx parts ;(
From: d_s_klein on 24 May 2010 13:33
On May 24, 9:28 am, glen herrmannsfeldt <g...(a)ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
> In comp.arch.fpga John Adair <g...(a)enterpoint.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > I'd second Ed's opinion. These devices were released circa 20-25 years
> > ago and their only useful place now is a museum. Almost anyone that
> > does have software for these will have a reason like long term product
> > maintainence and they are unlikely to let go the software.
>
> When I first knew about FPGAs, about 15 years ago, XC2000 devices
> were still in the book, but no-one I knew used them.
>
> I believe that Xilinx still has software for XC4000 devices on
> their web site, and I might even believe that some would still
> use them.  If you want a hobbyist device, go for XC4000 series.
>
> -- glen

I disagree with the suggestion to use an XC4000. HDL support for this
family (and the Spartan/SpartanXL) ended 5+ years ago. And by ended,
I mean that there is no legal way of obtaining the necessary software.

RK
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