about maths: strictly speaking, off topic, but justified.
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From: jmfbahciv on 21 Mar 2010 09:01 Ste wrote: > On 20 Mar, 13:01, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv(a)aol> wrote: >> Ste wrote: >>> On 19 Mar, 13:38, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv(a)aol> wrote: >>>> Ste wrote: >>>>> On 18 Mar, 21:58, Urion <blackman_...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>>> On Mar 18, 11:05 pm, Ste <ste_ro...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> A point I would make however is that mathematics, like traditional >>>>>>> language, has no inherent meaning, and its meaning is learned in >>>>>>> exactly the same way as traditional language, of using our senses to >>>>>>> make meaningful connections between language and concrete reality. >>>>>> Mathematics is a formal language and also an art. Currently it is the >>>>>> only way we have to describe the material universe using our cognitive >>>>>> faculties. This means that we cannot know anything about the universe >>>>>> beyond our biological senses. >>>>>> But I do agree with you that mathematics is not the real thing because >>>>>> it only uses a paper and a pencil. But currently it's all we have. >>>>> I think everyone agrees that language "is all we have" to describe the >>>>> universe - not least because the verb "describe" strongly implies the >>>>> use of language. >>>> I do not agree. Maps are not a language. >>> I think we'd need to be more specific about what we mean by "language" >>> - I'm using it very generally, perhaps in the sense of "something that >>> conveys meaning via abstract impressions on the senses". >> What senses? Math doesn't have anything to do with senses. > > It concerns the real world, No, it does not, thus... >and hence has everything to do with the > senses. > Nothing to do with the senses. > > >> I know >> you are using the word language sloppily. So is the other guy. >> Only the other guy is further confused by the use of the word >> in the computer biz; I don't know if you're doing the same. > > I'm not "confused" by the word. I've stated that I'm using it loosely, > and I've asked you to clarify your questions. I don't know how to write the sentence more clearly than... if you claim that math is a language, then what are the verbs? I don't care how "loosely" you're defining the word language, all have verbs. > > > >>>> So, answer the question: >>>> what are the verbs in math? >>> What do you mean by verbs? Clearly maths can be used to describe >>> action/change. >> Now answer the question. What are the verbs in math? Pick >> any branch of mathematics and list the verbs. > > I'm not refusing to answer the question! You've only asked me once, > and I'm asking you to clarify what you mean by "verbs". Action. Look it up in the dictionary. >Also if you > asked me "what are the nouns" or "what are the adjectives", "which is > the nominative case", etc, I'd still be asking you to clarify what you > meant, because these terms don't tend to be used in maths - but you do > have "variables", etc. [emoticon wafts the smoke away and breaks all the mirrors] I didn't ask about nouns and other flavors of words. I asked about verbs. Period. /BAH
From: J. Clarke on 21 Mar 2010 09:32 On 3/21/2010 9:01 AM, jmfbahciv wrote: > Ste wrote: >> On 20 Mar, 13:01, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv(a)aol> wrote: >>> Ste wrote: >>>> On 19 Mar, 13:38, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv(a)aol> wrote: >>>>> Ste wrote: >>>>>> On 18 Mar, 21:58, Urion <blackman_...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>>>> On Mar 18, 11:05 pm, Ste <ste_ro...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> A point I would make however is that mathematics, like traditional >>>>>>>> language, has no inherent meaning, and its meaning is learned in >>>>>>>> exactly the same way as traditional language, of using our >>>>>>>> senses to >>>>>>>> make meaningful connections between language and concrete reality. >>>>>>> Mathematics is a formal language and also an art. Currently it is >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> only way we have to describe the material universe using our >>>>>>> cognitive >>>>>>> faculties. This means that we cannot know anything about the >>>>>>> universe >>>>>>> beyond our biological senses. >>>>>>> But I do agree with you that mathematics is not the real thing >>>>>>> because >>>>>>> it only uses a paper and a pencil. But currently it's all we have. >>>>>> I think everyone agrees that language "is all we have" to describe >>>>>> the >>>>>> universe - not least because the verb "describe" strongly implies the >>>>>> use of language. >>>>> I do not agree. Maps are not a language. >>>> I think we'd need to be more specific about what we mean by "language" >>>> - I'm using it very generally, perhaps in the sense of "something that >>>> conveys meaning via abstract impressions on the senses". >>> What senses? Math doesn't have anything to do with senses. >> >> It concerns the real world, > > No, it does not, thus... > >> and hence has everything to do with the >> senses. >> > > Nothing to do with the senses. > > > >> >> >>> I know >>> you are using the word language sloppily. So is the other guy. >>> Only the other guy is further confused by the use of the word >>> in the computer biz; I don't know if you're doing the same. >> >> I'm not "confused" by the word. I've stated that I'm using it loosely, >> and I've asked you to clarify your questions. > > I don't know how to write the sentence more clearly than... > if you claim that math is a language, then what are the verbs? > I don't care how "loosely" you're defining the word language, > all have verbs. > >> >> >> >>>>> So, answer the question: >>>>> what are the verbs in math? >>>> What do you mean by verbs? Clearly maths can be used to describe >>>> action/change. >>> Now answer the question. What are the verbs in math? Pick >>> any branch of mathematics and list the verbs. >> >> I'm not refusing to answer the question! You've only asked me once, >> and I'm asking you to clarify what you mean by "verbs". > > Action. Look it up in the dictionary. > >> Also if you >> asked me "what are the nouns" or "what are the adjectives", "which is >> the nominative case", etc, I'd still be asking you to clarify what you >> meant, because these terms don't tend to be used in maths - but you do >> have "variables", etc. > > [emoticon wafts the smoke away and breaks all the mirrors] > I didn't ask about nouns and other flavors of words. I asked about > verbs. Period. "Let" would be one of them. But most people who talk about "math" are really talking about algebra over the reals.
From: Darwin123 on 21 Mar 2010 11:23 On Mar 21, 9:32 am, "J. Clarke" <jclarke.use...(a)cox.net> wrote: > On 3/21/2010 9:01 AM, jmfbahciv wrote: > > > > > Ste wrote: > >> On 20 Mar, 13:01, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv(a)aol> wrote: > >>> Ste wrote: > >>>> On 19 Mar, 13:38, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv(a)aol> wrote: > >>>>> Ste wrote: > >>>>>> On 18 Mar, 21:58, Urion <blackman_...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > >>>>>>> On Mar 18, 11:05 pm, Ste <ste_ro...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > "Let" would be one of them. > > But most people who talk about "math" are really talking about algebra > over the reals. When I talk about math, I am usually thinking about "word problems." Word problems attempt to model the "reals" in terms of "algebra." The use of words is very important in math. Math isn't really about numbers. Math is about logic. Math often involves abstractions. However, an abstraction is usually just a model for "reals."
From: Matt on 21 Mar 2010 12:25 On Sun, 21 Mar 2010 08:01:37 -0500, jmfbahciv wrote: >Ste wrote: >> On 20 Mar, 13:01, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv(a)aol> wrote: >>> Ste wrote: >>>> On 19 Mar, 13:38, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv(a)aol> wrote: >>>>> Ste wrote: >>>>> So, answer the question: >>>>> what are the verbs in math? >>>> What do you mean by verbs? Clearly maths can be used to describe >>>> action/change. >>> Now answer the question. What are the verbs in math? Pick >>> any branch of mathematics and list the verbs. >> >> I'm not refusing to answer the question! You've only asked me once, >> and I'm asking you to clarify what you mean by "verbs". > >Action. Look it up in the dictionary. > >>Also if you >> asked me "what are the nouns" or "what are the adjectives", "which is >> the nominative case", etc, I'd still be asking you to clarify what you >> meant, because these terms don't tend to be used in maths - but you do >> have "variables", etc. > >[emoticon wafts the smoke away and breaks all the mirrors] >I didn't ask about nouns and other flavors of words. I asked about >verbs. Period. Perhaps you are asking about verbs with insufficient latitude. Do you require that a language be composed of discrete elements communicated in a linear, sequential manner? If so, I submit that your definition of language is too narrow. Perhaps it is tainted by over exposure to computers, which require language to be of that form. The example of body language was given earlier. Where are the verbs in an exchange of glances through which one "gets lucky?" Is there no language in a painting that can evoke tears? Where are the verbs in a painting? Is there no language in "music that can tame the savage beast" and lift one from depression to dancing? Where are the verbs in a drum solo? Back to math as a language with verbs. Consider: 2 + 2 = 4. Is not "plus" a verb?
From: Matt on 21 Mar 2010 13:04
On Sun, 21 Mar 2010 11:25:55 -0500, Matt wrote: >On Sun, 21 Mar 2010 08:01:37 -0500, jmfbahciv wrote: > >>Ste wrote: >>> On 20 Mar, 13:01, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv(a)aol> wrote: >>>> Ste wrote: >>>>> On 19 Mar, 13:38, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv(a)aol> wrote: >>>>>> Ste wrote: >>>>>> So, answer the question: >>>>>> what are the verbs in math? >>>>> What do you mean by verbs? Clearly maths can be used to describe >>>>> action/change. >>>> Now answer the question. What are the verbs in math? Pick >>>> any branch of mathematics and list the verbs. >>> >>> I'm not refusing to answer the question! You've only asked me once, >>> and I'm asking you to clarify what you mean by "verbs". >> >>Action. Look it up in the dictionary. >> >>>Also if you >>> asked me "what are the nouns" or "what are the adjectives", "which is >>> the nominative case", etc, I'd still be asking you to clarify what you >>> meant, because these terms don't tend to be used in maths - but you do >>> have "variables", etc. >> >>[emoticon wafts the smoke away and breaks all the mirrors] >>I didn't ask about nouns and other flavors of words. I asked about >>verbs. Period. > >Perhaps you are asking about verbs with insufficient latitude. > >Do you require that a language be composed of discrete elements >communicated in a linear, sequential manner? If so, I submit that your >definition of language is too narrow. Perhaps it is tainted by over >exposure to computers, which require language to be of that form. > >The example of body language was given earlier. Where are the verbs in >an exchange of glances through which one "gets lucky?" > >Is there no language in a painting that can evoke tears? Where are the >verbs in a painting? > >Is there no language in "music that can tame the savage beast" and >lift one from depression to dancing? Where are the verbs in a drum >solo? > >Back to math as a language with verbs. Consider: >2 + 2 = 4. > >Is not "plus" a verb? "Plus" is the "action" you wanted. Lest you point to an English dictionary and note that "plus" isn't labeled as a verb: It isn't a _math_ dictionary. If math is a language, it has its own dictionary. Plus, your requirement that a verb be related to action is also too restrictive. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verb a verb ... conveys ... a state of being Let's write a statement in math and its translation in English: Math: 2 + 2 = 4 English: Two plus two is equal to four. In the English translation, "is" is a verb. Every math statement with an equals symbol has a verb. |