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From: eromlignod on 21 Apr 2006 12:51
Don Lancaster wrote:
> Rich Grise wrote:
> > Speaking of self-calibration, I wonder what ever happened to that
> > self-tuning piano?

>
> Pianos are enormously difficult to tune because the overtones are NON
> harmonic! The keyboard needs "stretched" to compensate for this effect.
>
> Apparently the lateral stiffness of the strings moves the seventh
> ovretone up to where the eighth harmonic is supposed to be.
>
> The lowest notes are lowered by as much as thirty cents.
> The highest notes are raised by as much as twelve cents.
>
> A piano tuned with a frequency meter will sound awful.


The harmonics must follow the fundamental. If a piano string is tuned
aurally by ear to its perfect "in tune" pitch, the fundamental will
have a specific, measurable, repeatable frequency.

The Self-Tuning Piano simply measures and stores the fundamental
frequency (period, actually) of each string after it has been tuned by
a master technician. These values are repeated in the field. No
theoretical or calculated values are used. It simply replicates an
actual human tuning.

I am currently switching companies to produce the device. QRS kept
putting the project on the back burner. I'm meeting with an executive
of a major piano company (I guarantee you have heard of them) in two
weeks. Hopefully the product will come out by the end of this year.

Don A. Gilmore
Kansas City

From: Don Lancaster on 21 Apr 2006 15:32
eromlignod wrote:
> Don Lancaster wrote:
>
>>Rich Grise wrote:
>>
>>>Speaking of self-calibration, I wonder what ever happened to that
>>>self-tuning piano?
>
>
>>Pianos are enormously difficult to tune because the overtones are NON
>>harmonic! The keyboard needs "stretched" to compensate for this effect.
>>
>>Apparently the lateral stiffness of the strings moves the seventh
>>ovretone up to where the eighth harmonic is supposed to be.
>>
>>The lowest notes are lowered by as much as thirty cents.
>>The highest notes are raised by as much as twelve cents.
>>
>>A piano tuned with a frequency meter will sound awful.
>
>
>
> The harmonics must follow the fundamental. If a piano string is tuned
> aurally by ear to its perfect "in tune" pitch, the fundamental will
> have a specific, measurable, repeatable frequency.
>
> The Self-Tuning Piano simply measures and stores the fundamental
> frequency (period, actually) of each string after it has been tuned by
> a master technician. These values are repeated in the field. No
> theoretical or calculated values are used. It simply replicates an
> actual human tuning.
>
> I am currently switching companies to produce the device. QRS kept
> putting the project on the back burner. I'm meeting with an executive
> of a major piano company (I guarantee you have heard of them) in two
> weeks. Hopefully the product will come out by the end of this year.
>
> Don A. Gilmore
> Kansas City
>


You are in for a VERY rude surprise when your results will inevitably
sound TOTALLY AWFUL.

Piano overtones on the lower notes are definitely and empnatically NOT
harmonics. But, yes, they do follow the fundamental.

Talk to any piano tuner for the secrets of keyboard stretching.
Low notes should be as much as 30 cents low; highest notes should be 11
to 12 cents high.

Sounds like you do not have the faintest clue what you are attempting to do.

--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
rss: http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: don(a)tinaja.com

Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
From: eromlignod on 21 Apr 2006 16:18
Don Lancaster wrote:
> You are in for a VERY rude surprise when your results will inevitably
> sound TOTALLY AWFUL.
>
> Piano overtones on the lower notes are definitely and empnatically NOT
> harmonics. But, yes, they do follow the fundamental.
>
> Talk to any piano tuner for the secrets of keyboard stretching.
> Low notes should be as much as 30 cents low; highest notes should be 11
> to 12 cents high.
>
> Sounds like you do not have the faintest clue what you are attempting to do.


....And it sounds like you don't have the faintest clue who you're
talking to. I have worked on this device for over fourteen years and
have had the help of many, many piano technicians, college professors
and international experts in the piano manufacturing industry. I
belong to the Piano Technicians Guild (look it up) and I'm a degreed
mechanical engineer with twenty years' experience (UMR 1986). I also
studied piano at the Conservatory of Music at UMKC for sixteen years.

This device has been covered extensively in the media, like the New
York Times:

http://tech2.nytimes.com/mem/technology/techreview.html?_r=1&res=9800E1D8133FF931A35752C0A9659C8B63&oref=slogin

NPR Radio:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=878091

New Scientist Magazine:

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3143

And many other publications including the Nikkei Marketing Journal
(Japan), Der Spiegel (Germany), Intermediar (Holland) and radio
programs in Australia, South Africa, India, South America and Canada
and even on Paul Harvey's afternoon broadcast.

It is also patented (US #6,559,369); look it up. The working model
sits right here beside me and tunes a piano absolutely beautifully in
nineteen seconds and uses no moving parts. It will be endorsed by
famous concert pianists from around the world.

Thanks for the laugh.

Don A. Gilmore
Kansas City

From: Phil Hobbs on 21 Apr 2006 17:32
eromlignod wrote:
> Don Lancaster wrote:
>
>>Rich Grise wrote:
>>
>>>Speaking of self-calibration, I wonder what ever happened to that
>>>self-tuning piano?
>
>
>>Pianos are enormously difficult to tune because the overtones are NON
>>harmonic! The keyboard needs "stretched" to compensate for this effect.
>>
>
> The harmonics must follow the fundamental. If a piano string is tuned
> aurally by ear to its perfect "in tune" pitch, the fundamental will
> have a specific, measurable, repeatable frequency.
>
Overtones and harmonics are different. Overtones are higher-order
resonances of the mechanical system, which need not be anywhere near
harmonically related. Drumheads and gongs have nice sharp resonances,
but because the overtones are not spaced in nearly-harmonic order the
way piano string and organ pipe resonances are, you get "thump" or
"clang" instead of "Deeerrrrrrrrrrrr".

Cheers,

Phil Hobbs
From: eromlignod on 21 Apr 2006 17:54
Phil Hobbs wrote:
> Overtones and harmonics are different. Overtones are higher-order
> resonances of the mechanical system, which need not be anywhere near
> harmonically related. Drumheads and gongs have nice sharp resonances,
> but because the overtones are not spaced in nearly-harmonic order the
> way piano string and organ pipe resonances are, you get "thump" or
> "clang" instead of "Deeerrrrrrrrrrrr".


You're splitting semantic hairs. Just because overtones don't exactly
match the theoretical "harmonic series" doesn't mean that they don't
follow the fundamental.

If I tune a string until I get just the right overtones at just the
right pitches that I am looking for in my aural tuning, the fundamental
will end up at a specific frequency. If I push the string way down
flat, the partials all go flat too. If I then pull it back up until
the fundamental is at the same frequency it was at before, all the
overtones will also return to exactly where they were before. So the
fundamental of a string tells you more than just the fundamental
frequency its vibration; it also duplicates the entire overtone series
since the partials will retain their same relative positions to it.

Don A. Gilmore
Kansas City

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