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From: Rich Grise on 21 Apr 2006 18:44
On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 09:51:08 -0700, eromlignod wrote:
> Don Lancaster wrote:
>> Rich Grise wrote:
>> > Speaking of self-calibration, I wonder what ever happened to that
>> > self-tuning piano?
>
>> Pianos are enormously difficult to tune because the overtones are NON
>> harmonic! The keyboard needs "stretched" to compensate for this effect.
>>
>> Apparently the lateral stiffness of the strings moves the seventh
>> ovretone up to where the eighth harmonic is supposed to be.
>>
>> The lowest notes are lowered by as much as thirty cents.
>> The highest notes are raised by as much as twelve cents.
>>
>> A piano tuned with a frequency meter will sound awful.
>
> The harmonics must follow the fundamental. If a piano string is tuned
> aurally by ear to its perfect "in tune" pitch, the fundamental will
> have a specific, measurable, repeatable frequency.
>
> The Self-Tuning Piano simply measures and stores the fundamental
> frequency (period, actually) of each string after it has been tuned by
> a master technician. These values are repeated in the field. No
> theoretical or calculated values are used. It simply replicates an
> actual human tuning.
>
> I am currently switching companies to produce the device. QRS kept
> putting the project on the back burner. I'm meeting with an executive
> of a major piano company (I guarantee you have heard of them) in two
> weeks. Hopefully the product will come out by the end of this year.

Thanks for the update! I've been chomping at the bit to hear what it
sounds like while it's tuning itself ever since you first mentioned
it. :-)

Thanks!
Rich

From: Rich Grise on 21 Apr 2006 18:47
On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 12:32:43 -0700, Don Lancaster wrote:

> eromlignod wrote:

>> The Self-Tuning Piano simply measures and stores the fundamental
>> frequency (period, actually) of each string after it has been tuned by
>> a master technician. These values are repeated in the field. No
>> theoretical or calculated values are used. It simply replicates an
>> actual human tuning.
>
> You are in for a VERY rude surprise when your results will inevitably
> sound TOTALLY AWFUL.
>
> Piano overtones on the lower notes are definitely and empnatically NOT
> harmonics. But, yes, they do follow the fundamental.
>
> Talk to any piano tuner for the secrets of keyboard stretching.
> Low notes should be as much as 30 cents low; highest notes should be 11
> to 12 cents high.
>
> Sounds like you do not have the faintest clue what you are attempting to do.

Sounds to me like he has more than just a faint clue, which you seem to
have overlooked. Do you ever read, or just write? Go back to the top of
this post, and reread what Don A. Gilmore wrote. Once it is tuned by a
master technician, each particular string will have its own fundamental
frequency. Record that. Now, when the piano goes out of tune, what
difference does it make by which method that string is re-tuned to its
own, known, fundamental?

Thanks,
Rich


From: Rich Grise on 21 Apr 2006 18:49
On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 13:18:51 -0700, eromlignod wrote:

> Don Lancaster wrote:
>> You are in for a VERY rude surprise when your results will inevitably
>> sound TOTALLY AWFUL.
>>
>> Piano overtones on the lower notes are definitely and empnatically NOT
>> harmonics. But, yes, they do follow the fundamental.
>>
>> Talk to any piano tuner for the secrets of keyboard stretching.
>> Low notes should be as much as 30 cents low; highest notes should be 11
>> to 12 cents high.
>>
>> Sounds like you do not have the faintest clue what you are attempting to do.
>
>
> ...And it sounds like you don't have the faintest clue who you're
> talking to. I have worked on this device for over fourteen years and
> have had the help of many, many piano technicians, college professors
> and international experts in the piano manufacturing industry. I
> belong to the Piano Technicians Guild (look it up) and I'm a degreed
> mechanical engineer with twenty years' experience (UMR 1986). I also
> studied piano at the Conservatory of Music at UMKC for sixteen years.
>
> This device has been covered extensively in the media, like the New
> York Times:
>
> http://tech2.nytimes.com/mem/technology/techreview.html?_r=1&res=9800E1D8133FF931A35752C0A9659C8B63&oref=slogin
>
> NPR Radio:
>
> http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=878091
>
> New Scientist Magazine:
>
> http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3143
>
> And many other publications including the Nikkei Marketing Journal
> (Japan), Der Spiegel (Germany), Intermediar (Holland) and radio
> programs in Australia, South Africa, India, South America and Canada
> and even on Paul Harvey's afternoon broadcast.
>
> It is also patented (US #6,559,369); look it up. The working model
> sits right here beside me and tunes a piano absolutely beautifully in
> nineteen seconds and uses no moving parts. It will be endorsed by
> famous concert pianists from around the world.
>
> Thanks for the laugh.
>
> Don A. Gilmore
> Kansas City

So, when do we get to hear it in action? Like the cat that ate the cheese,
I'm waiting with baited breath... ;-)

Thanks,
Rich


From: Don Lancaster on 21 Apr 2006 19:10
eromlignod wrote:
> Phil Hobbs wrote:
>
>>Overtones and harmonics are different. Overtones are higher-order
>>resonances of the mechanical system, which need not be anywhere near
>>harmonically related. Drumheads and gongs have nice sharp resonances,
>>but because the overtones are not spaced in nearly-harmonic order the
>>way piano string and organ pipe resonances are, you get "thump" or
>>"clang" instead of "Deeerrrrrrrrrrrr".
>
>
>
> You're splitting semantic hairs. Just because overtones don't exactly
> match the theoretical "harmonic series" doesn't mean that they don't
> follow the fundamental.
>
> If I tune a string until I get just the right overtones at just the
> right pitches that I am looking for in my aural tuning, the fundamental
> will end up at a specific frequency. If I push the string way down
> flat, the partials all go flat too. If I then pull it back up until
> the fundamental is at the same frequency it was at before, all the
> overtones will also return to exactly where they were before. So the
> fundamental of a string tells you more than just the fundamental
> frequency its vibration; it also duplicates the entire overtone series
> since the partials will retain their same relative positions to it.
>
> Don A. Gilmore
> Kansas City
>


This in NO MANNER negates the fact that a properly tuned piano keyboard
totally sucks.

The keyboard MUST be stretched to sound anywhere near decent.

--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
rss: http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: don(a)tinaja.com

Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
From: Don A. Gilmore on 21 Apr 2006 20:18
"Don Lancaster" <don(a)tinaja.com> wrote in message
news:4at736Fu4h7pU2(a)individual.net...
> This in NO MANNER negates the fact that a properly tuned piano keyboard
> totally sucks.
>
> The keyboard MUST be stretched to sound anywhere near decent.


They WILL be stretched, just like the factory tuning. Everything about the
manual tuning is duplicated exactly. The system does NOT use the theoretical
frequencies of equal temperament at all. (Damn, now you've got ME using
kooky kapitals).

Don
Kansas City


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