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From: Wietse Venema on 22 Jun 2010 08:39
Keld Simonsen:
> > > > Another approach is to use VERP which sends one message per
> > > > recipient and encodes the recipent in the bounce address.
> > > >
> > > > See http://www.postfix.org/VERP_README.html
> > >
> > > I am trying the VERP way, and have a little difficulty to understand what to do.
> > >
> > > I understand that there are two phases in the setup:
> > >
> > > 1. have sendmail generate an extended reply address,
> > > with the recipient added to the reply address, after a delimiter,
> > > which by default is "+" . the recepient address is added with the
> >
> > Where does VERP_README say that SENDMAIL must generate a
> > specially-formatted sender address?
>
> I don't know. It was just my understanding that this was the way
> it worked. Or: that the bounce address was specifically generated
> per message - and that the "-XV" option to sendmail was the
> mechanism for triggering this behaviour.
>
> The VERP_README says:
>
> > In order to make VERP useful with majordomo etc. mailing lists, you would configure the list manager to submit mail according to one of the following two forms:
> >
> > Postfix 2.3 and later:
> >
> > % sendmail -XV -f owner-listname other-arguments...

Yes. When the documentation says this, then that is what
you are supposed to do.

> Can I use VERP without specifically generated bounce addresses?
> How do I then identify the problem adressee - which possibly has
> a mutated address?

If you could scroll down a few lines from the "sendmail -XV" example,
then you will find all this spelled out in detail. Including the
part that says how the failed recipient address comes back:

With this set up, undeliverable mail for user(a)domain will be
returned to the following address:

owner-listname+user=domain(a)your.domain

I can lead the horse to the water but I can't force it to drink.

Wietse

From: Keld Simonsen on 22 Jun 2010 11:23
On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 08:39:31AM -0400, Wietse Venema wrote:
> Keld Simonsen:
> > > > > Another approach is to use VERP which sends one message per
> > > > > recipient and encodes the recipent in the bounce address.
> > > > >
> > > > > See http://www.postfix.org/VERP_README.html
> > > >
> > > > I am trying the VERP way, and have a little difficulty to understand what to do.
> > > >
> > > > I understand that there are two phases in the setup:
> > > >
> > > > 1. have sendmail generate an extended reply address,
> > > > with the recipient added to the reply address, after a delimiter,
> > > > which by default is "+" . the recepient address is added with the
> > >
> > > Where does VERP_README say that SENDMAIL must generate a
> > > specially-formatted sender address?
> >
> > I don't know. It was just my understanding that this was the way
> > it worked. Or: that the bounce address was specifically generated
> > per message - and that the "-XV" option to sendmail was the
> > mechanism for triggering this behaviour.
> >
> > The VERP_README says:
> >
> > > In order to make VERP useful with majordomo etc. mailing lists, you would configure the list manager to submit mail according to one of the following two forms:
> > >
> > > Postfix 2.3 and later:
> > >
> > > % sendmail -XV -f owner-listname other-arguments...
>
> Yes. When the documentation says this, then that is what
> you are supposed to do.

yes, but where?

> > Can I use VERP without specifically generated bounce addresses?
> > How do I then identify the problem adressee - which possibly has
> > a mutated address?
>
> If you could scroll down a few lines from the "sendmail -XV" example,
> then you will find all this spelled out in detail. Including the
> part that says how the failed recipient address comes back:
>
> With this set up, undeliverable mail for user(a)domain will be
> returned to the following address:
>
> owner-listname+user=domain(a)your.domain
>
> I can lead the horse to the water but I can't force it to drink.

Thanks for spelling it out to me. I think I allready had understood
most of this. I am interpreting your answer above that I cannot
use VERP without the specially generated return address:

owner-listname+user=domain(a)your.domain

I then have some questions on things that are unclear to me:

Where do I set up the -XV option to sendmail?

I sometimes just use an include in the alias file for a bigger list, and sometimes I use
majordomo.

For majordomo I am using wrapper in the alias file. majordomo has a number of instances
in diverse files in /home/majordomo that either invoke /usr/sbin/sendmail or /usr/lib/sendmail.
On which one(s) should I add -XV? Is -XV a reasonable option to /usr/lib/sendmail, or does
it only work with /usr/sbin/sendmail ?

For the non-majordomo lists - where do I invoke sendmail -XV ? It looks like this is not doable
in the alias file. I did not see any obvious place in postfix main.cf nor
master.cf either.

Thanks for your help.

best regards
keld

From: Wietse Venema on 22 Jun 2010 11:48
Keld Simonsen:
> > > The VERP_README says:
> > >
> > > > In order to make VERP useful with majordomo etc. mailing lists, you would configure the list manager to submit mail according to one of the following two forms:
> > > >
> > > > Postfix 2.3 and later:
> > > >
> > > > % sendmail -XV -f owner-listname other-arguments...
> >
> > Yes. When the documentation says this, then that is what
> > you are supposed to do.
>
> yes, but where?

You configre the program that invokes the Postfix sendmail
command, so that it invokes the command like so:

sendmail -XV -f owner-listname other-arguments...

With Majordomo the sendmail command line is in a config file, buried
in Perl syntax. Other list managers should have equivalent
configuration mechanisms.

DO NOT feed a specially-formatted sender address into the Postfix
sendmail command. Just follow the d*mned instructions.

> > With this set up, undeliverable mail for user(a)domain will be
> > returned to the following address:
> >
> > owner-listname+user=domain(a)your.domain

And that is all.

Again, DO NOT feed a specially-formatted sender address into the Postfix
sendmail command. Just do what the instructins say.

Wietse

From: Keld Simonsen on 22 Jun 2010 13:32
On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 11:48:11AM -0400, Wietse Venema wrote:
> Keld Simonsen:
> > > > The VERP_README says:
> > > >
> > > > > In order to make VERP useful with majordomo etc. mailing lists, you would configure the list manager to submit mail according to one of the following two forms:
> > > > >
> > > > > Postfix 2.3 and later:
> > > > >
> > > > > % sendmail -XV -f owner-listname other-arguments...
> > >
> > > Yes. When the documentation says this, then that is what
> > > you are supposed to do.
> >
> > yes, but where?
>
> You configre the program that invokes the Postfix sendmail
> command, so that it invokes the command like so:
>
> sendmail -XV -f owner-listname other-arguments...
>
> With Majordomo the sendmail command line is in a config file, buried
> in Perl syntax. Other list managers should have equivalent
> configuration mechanisms.

yes, there are a number of sendmail invocations in the majordomo
perl scripts. I am just wondering which ones to change. A word count
on the perl scripts in /home/majordomo says that there are 113
occurrances of "sendmail". I probably should not change them all.
And I am not that familiar with the intrinsics of majordomo scripts.

I am probably not the first to do VERP with postfix and majordomo, so I hope
others could help me before I do something hopelessly stupid, and
which I will only discover many moons from now.

> DO NOT feed a specially-formatted sender address into the Postfix
> sendmail command. Just follow the d*mned instructions.
>
> > > With this set up, undeliverable mail for user(a)domain will be
> > > returned to the following address:
> > >
> > > owner-listname+user=domain(a)your.domain
>
> And that is all.
>
> Again, DO NOT feed a specially-formatted sender address into the Postfix
> sendmail command. Just do what the instructins say.

I was intending to add "-XV" to a sendmail line somewhere - nothing else.

For postfix proper, does postfix invoke the postfix sendmail command somewhere
in the process as an MTA to deliver a mail, - for aliases expansion?
I would have thought that this was governed by postfix/master.cf .
That is postfix would receive a message on port 25 and then forward it to some queue
for deliverance. I would then think I could employ postfix sendmail -XV to generate
bounce mails with the recipients address in the bounce field somewhere.

BTW, I got the delivery part to work as documented, so mail to user+sender(a)domain
gets delivered to user(a)domain. So far, so good.

best regards
keld

From: Wietse Venema on 23 Jun 2010 09:24
Keld Simonsen:
> > You configre the program that invokes the Postfix sendmail
> > command, so that it invokes the command like so:
> >
> > sendmail -XV -f owner-listname other-arguments...
> >
> > With Majordomo the sendmail command line is in a config file, buried
> > in Perl syntax. Other list managers should have equivalent
> > configuration mechanisms.
>
> yes, there are a number of sendmail invocations in the majordomo
> perl scripts. I am just wondering which ones to change. A word count
> on the perl scripts in /home/majordomo says that there are 113
> occurrances of "sendmail". I probably should not change them all.
> And I am not that familiar with the intrinsics of majordomo scripts.

I'm happy to naswer questions about Postfix in the limited time that
I have. If you need custom work on other applications you learn to
do it yourself, or you find someone else.

Wietse

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