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From: David Brown on 4 Mar 2010 03:52 On 01/03/2010 22:58, D Yuniskis wrote: > Hi, > > I do a lot of formal writing (specifications, manuals, etc.). > > And, I suspect much of my spelling, vocabulary, grammar, > etc. traits have remained largely unchanged since grade > school. :< > > Today, as I was trying to remember a keystroke sequence > for an accented character in FrameMaker, I *conciously* > noticed that I still automatically spell "naive" with a > dieresis. > > At first, I shrugged this off as a throwback to something > I learned in childhood. > > But, then I started thinking about it more. In particular, > the fact that I *only* use it in this word! And, have > *never* used it in other places where it "should" be used. > > (of course, no one *still* uses it at all, so this is a moot > point) > <rant> For people using Windows with English-language keyboard layouts, it is extremely inconvenient to make proper use of diacritical marks of any kind - thus people generally don't bother. I have no idea why there is such a limitation here - after all, with non-English keyboard layouts in Windows you have easy access to the more common marks even when they are not part of your language (on my Norwegian keyboard, I can easily write na�ve). And of course on Linux, you typically have far more combinations directly available, and support for a "compose" key if you need it. The upshot of this your average English-only Windows-only computer user has little idea about how to get non-Ascii characters into a document, and generally does not bother. Word processors (in particular, a certain well-known word processor from a certain well-known software company) have greatly reduced the quality of typesetting in general. Few people seem to understand fundamentals such as consistent use of spacing and fonts, and for some unfathomable reason, word processors don't automate these rules (TeX and LaTeX have done it for a couple of decades - it's not /that/ hard to implement). Try asking your company's technical writers if they understand the difference between a hyphen, an en-dash, and an em-dash! </rant>
From: Stefan Reuther on 4 Mar 2010 12:49 D Yuniskis wrote: > So, this is a case where you *can* put it on a consonant. > Now, does that usage fall under my interpretation of the > role of "diaraesis"? Or, does the description "SMALL LETTER > ZHE WITH DIARESIS" take liberties with the term "diaraesis"? > Or, is my interpretation of the term incorrect and "diaraesis" > is actually the name for "two dots above"? Wikipedia claims "diaeresis" coming from Greek diaíresis: "taking apart", so whereas the "di" might mean "two", the remainder certainly doesn't mean "dots" :-) Stefan
From: D Yuniskis on 4 Mar 2010 13:53 Hi David, David Brown wrote: > <rant> > > For people using Windows with English-language keyboard layouts, it is > extremely inconvenient to make proper use of diacritical marks of any > kind - thus people generally don't bother. I have no idea why there is > such a limitation here - after all, with non-English keyboard layouts in > Windows you have easy access to the more common marks even when they are > not part of your language (on my Norwegian keyboard, I can easily write That goes to the point I was making -- that these "old" adornments are just no longer used. E.g., when *writing* (as with pen and paper) "naive", you can *easily* put two dots over the 'i' -- yet how often do you see it done? In the DSw, *some* folks will still observe the use of "~n" where needed -- no doubt a consequence of the Hispanic influence there. (US) English seems to be shedding these decorations except for artsy-fartsy corporate use in which the vendor tries to look "less commonplace" by misspelling their name and adding silly accents/diacryticals/pronunciation marks to "look cool". > na�ve). And of course on Linux, you typically have far more > combinations directly available, and support for a "compose" key if you > need it. Ditto Solaris as "compose" has a key dedicated. > The upshot of this your average English-only Windows-only computer user > has little idea about how to get non-Ascii characters into a document, > and generally does not bother. I contend that they aren't aware of the "need". How many know how (when) to use a semicolon? > Word processors (in particular, a certain well-known word processor from > a certain well-known software company) have greatly reduced the quality > of typesetting in general. Few people seem to understand fundamentals > such as consistent use of spacing and fonts, and for some unfathomable > reason, word processors don't automate these rules (TeX and LaTeX have > done it for a couple of decades - it's not /that/ hard to implement). > Try asking your company's technical writers if they understand the > difference between a hyphen, an en-dash, and an em-dash! I have been quite happy, in general, with FrameMaker (and would highly recommend it to folks who do any significant amount of DTP -- I even use it for correspondence). But, it requires magic incantations for most of the "special characters". E.g., ESC <space> m em space ESC <space> n en space ESC <space> 1 '0' space ESC <space> h non-break space Ctrl-Q Shft-q em dash Ctrl-Q Shft-p en dash ESC - h non-break hyphen Some would argue these to be a bit more intuitive than trying to commit to memory their Unicode equivalents. <shrug> Note that the "no break" variants are "application specific" so I can cut them some slack, there. It, however, falls down in several areas that, to me, seem to be no-brainers. E.g., it should allow me to automatically apply a particular character format to certain "character combinations" (e.g., "a priori", "etc.", "e.g.", "i.e.") instead of forcing me to do this with "Find and Replace". It also has some little bugs that creep up when you try to play tricks to coerce certain layouts "automatically". Ventura Publisher was much easier to trick into doing what you wanted -- though you had to think as a programmer would and modify settings in predictable ways to force the layout engine to put things where you want them. I had one layout for a "pictorial" table of contents in which pictures of screen shots were annotated with short commentaries. The commentaries appeared to the left of the screen image on recto pages and to the *right* on verso. *Then* this "assembly" would cling to the *binding* edge of the page leaving a wide margin on the outer edge. I.e., as a particular "annotated image" moved from one page to another, it would automatically re-lay-itself-out to satisfy these criteria. It was visually appealing -- moreso because most readers never noticed the differences between recto and verso renderings! I haven't found anything that could be coaxed into doing this other than VP. (Corel screwed up VP when they bought it -- "Gee, it works great! Let's FIX it.") Well, we *were* talking about rants, right? :>
From: Jim Stewart on 4 Mar 2010 13:48 D Yuniskis wrote: > Hi David, > > David Brown wrote: >> <rant> >> >> For people using Windows with English-language keyboard layouts, it is >> extremely inconvenient to make proper use of diacritical marks of any >> kind - thus people generally don't bother. I have no idea why there >> is such a limitation here - after all, with non-English keyboard >> layouts in Windows you have easy access to the more common marks even >> when they are not part of your language (on my Norwegian keyboard, I >> can easily write > > That goes to the point I was making -- that these "old" > adornments are just no longer used. > > E.g., when *writing* (as with pen and paper) "naive", you can > *easily* put two dots over the 'i' -- yet how often do you see > it done? In the DSw, *some* folks will still observe the > use of "~n" where needed -- no doubt a consequence of the > Hispanic influence there. > > (US) English seems to be shedding these decorations except > for artsy-fartsy corporate use in which the vendor tries to > look "less commonplace" by misspelling their name and adding > silly accents/diacryticals/pronunciation marks to "look cool". �nited St�tes Toughens Image With Umlauts http://www.theonion.com/content/node/32404
From: David Brown on 4 Mar 2010 17:48
D Yuniskis wrote: > Hi David, > > David Brown wrote: >> <rant> >> >> For people using Windows with English-language keyboard layouts, it is >> extremely inconvenient to make proper use of diacritical marks of any >> kind - thus people generally don't bother. I have no idea why there >> is such a limitation here - after all, with non-English keyboard >> layouts in Windows you have easy access to the more common marks even >> when they are not part of your language (on my Norwegian keyboard, I >> can easily write > > That goes to the point I was making -- that these "old" > adornments are just no longer used. > First off, these "old" adornments, as you call them, are part of the language for many non-English languages, and are very much used - failing to use the correct marks is a spelling mistake. It is only within the English-only world that people think it is acceptable to omit them. I also want to point out that while /most/ people don't use the appropriate adornments, some people still do - such as myself. > E.g., when *writing* (as with pen and paper) "naive", you can > *easily* put two dots over the 'i' -- yet how often do you see > it done? In the DSw, *some* folks will still observe the > use of "~n" where needed -- no doubt a consequence of the > Hispanic influence there. > To be entirely honest, there are not many occasions when you need to use adorned letters in English. How many other examples are there than na�ve, and how often does that word turn up in writing? Actually, since you mention Spanish, "se�or" would be another example. Thunderbird's English language dictionary offers to correct "senor" to "se�or" - there's another way to type the letter using an English-only keyboard! And where is "DSw" ? I hope you are not making the assumption that all Americans know what it stands for, and therefore everyone else should... > (US) English seems to be shedding these decorations except > for artsy-fartsy corporate use in which the vendor tries to > look "less commonplace" by misspelling their name and adding > silly accents/diacryticals/pronunciation marks to "look cool". > >> na�ve). And of course on Linux, you typically have far more >> combinations directly available, and support for a "compose" key if >> you need it. > > Ditto Solaris as "compose" has a key dedicated. > Yes, I should have generalised to *nix rather than just Linux. >> The upshot of this your average English-only Windows-only computer >> user has little idea about how to get non-Ascii characters into a >> document, and generally does not bother. > > I contend that they aren't aware of the "need". How many know how > (when) to use a semicolon? > Education ain't what it used to be... Of course, there is the other point that languages change over time. While many people would agree that "na�ve" should be spelt "na�ve", very few people would write co�perate - it has gone out of fashion long ago. >> Word processors (in particular, a certain well-known word processor >> from a certain well-known software company) have greatly reduced the >> quality of typesetting in general. Few people seem to understand >> fundamentals such as consistent use of spacing and fonts, and for some >> unfathomable reason, word processors don't automate these rules (TeX >> and LaTeX have done it for a couple of decades - it's not /that/ hard >> to implement). Try asking your company's technical writers if they >> understand the difference between a hyphen, an en-dash, and an em-dash! > > I have been quite happy, in general, with FrameMaker (and would > highly recommend it to folks who do any significant amount of > DTP -- I even use it for correspondence). But, it requires > magic incantations for most of the "special characters". E.g., > ESC <space> m em space > ESC <space> n en space > ESC <space> 1 '0' space > ESC <space> h non-break space > Ctrl-Q Shft-q em dash > Ctrl-Q Shft-p en dash > ESC - h non-break hyphen > > Some would argue these to be a bit more intuitive than trying > to commit to memory their Unicode equivalents. <shrug> Note > that the "no break" variants are "application specific" so I > can cut them some slack, there. > > It, however, falls down in several areas that, to me, seem to > be no-brainers. E.g., it should allow me to automatically apply > a particular character format to certain "character combinations" > (e.g., "a priori", "etc.", "e.g.", "i.e.") instead of forcing me > to do this with "Find and Replace". > I am not sure I would agree with putting "e.g.", "etc.", or "i.e." in Italics - I think they are too much part of the modern English language to be considered non-English phrases. /a priori/ is different in that it is a complete phrase rather than an abbreviation. I hope you always remember the comma after "e.g." and similar abbreviations. If you are interested in good typography, you really should drop these WYSIAYG systems and learn LaTeX. If nothing else, you'll learn more from about computer typesetting from reading the Knuth's "The TeXbook" and Lamport's "LaTeX: A Document Preparation System" than from almost any other source I know of. > It also has some little bugs that creep up when you try to play > tricks to coerce certain layouts "automatically". > > Ventura Publisher was much easier to trick into doing what you > wanted -- though you had to think as a programmer would and > modify settings in predictable ways to force the layout engine to > put things where you want them. > > I had one layout for a "pictorial" table of contents in which > pictures of screen shots were annotated with short commentaries. > The commentaries appeared to the left of the screen image on recto > pages and to the *right* on verso. *Then* this "assembly" would > cling to the *binding* edge of the page leaving a wide margin on > the outer edge. I.e., as a particular "annotated image" moved > from one page to another, it would automatically re-lay-itself-out > to satisfy these criteria. It was visually appealing -- moreso > because most readers never noticed the differences between > recto and verso renderings! > > I haven't found anything that could be coaxed into doing this > other than VP. (Corel screwed up VP when they bought it -- "Gee, > it works great! Let's FIX it.") > > Well, we *were* talking about rants, right? :> Right. |