inverter generators
in [Design]
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From: Tim Williams on 22 Jun 2010 15:03 "Joel Koltner" <zapwireDASHgroups(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message news:mI6Un.465228$Vq1.178539(a)en-nntp-03.dc1.easynews.com... > And I'd like him to find me the transformer in a ceiling fan ... or find > a PC that doesn't use a "power transformer" in its power supply: > > "If you have equipment that can deal with these pseudo-sine waves, that's > the way to go as they are very efficient. Most electronics have no problem > with this, as they take the line and make it into DC right away anyway. > Like a compact fluorescent bulb, or a PC. But some appliances have a > problem with this, in particular anything with a power transformer in it, > like an older microwave oven or stereo amp or fluorescent tube fixture or > ceiling fan." Transformer, as in, line voltage goes to a winding around a core. SMPS don't have a transformer at the input, they have a bunch of stuff inbetween. Physically, motors are just as transformery as transformers, though it's certainly a misnomer to be calling them such! Someone should make incredibly cheap VFDs suitable for running shaded pole type motors and legacy transformerized equipment, then convert the entire house to DC. Way better power factor for all those SMPS's... ....Of course, then your 120/240V switchable supplies all croak, which is still most computers. Tim -- Deep Friar: a very philosophical monk. Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms
From: Bruce in alaska on 22 Jun 2010 15:47 In article <b8c12d7e-1dd3-48f0-8608-37f92cac63c2(a)u7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, Jim Wilkins <kb1dal(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Jun 22, 7:57�am, "amdx" <a...(a)knology.net> wrote: > > �Hi All, > > �I want a definition of �"inverter generator" > > > > �Is it as simple as the generator generates a DC voltage and then > > an electronic circuit (inverter) uses the dc to make 60 hz AC? > > > > Or maybe the generator generates AC which is changed to DC and > > then back to (cleaner, inverter) AC. > > > > � � � � � � � � � � � � � � �Mike > > This is the manual for the Yamaha EF1000: > http://www.yamaha-motor.com/assets/service/manuals/0/LIT-19626-01-19_1109.pdf > > The schematic at the end shows two three-phase permanent magnet > alternators (1,2) which presumably are rectified to DC and then > inverted to 60Hz AC. I haven't worked on one of these generators but > motorcycles use those alternators. > > I would guess that one of the alternators must put out enough voltage > at idle, the other is more efficient at high speed. The stepping motor > (21) might control the throttle. The bottom part of the schematic is > the engine ignition. > > jsw Hey Guys, Just a NOTE here: ALL Electrical Generators produce their power in AC, PERIOD. What you think of as DC Generators have Commutators that convert the AC from the windings, mechanically to DC, coming off the Commutator Brushes. In the Inverter/Generator case, the Main Genend Windings, are 3 Phase AC that is rectified, to DC and then feed into the DC input of the Main 60 Hz Inverter. If the load Power is more than the DC Input to the Inverter Section then the CPU Controller ramps up the Throttle on the Engine to provide the required Power for the load. this way the engine only provides just enough power to satisfy the load on the output of the inverter, thus saving fuel, and machinery wear. Great concept but give me a nice old Diesel 1800 RPM Genset any day. -- Bruce in alaska add <path> after <fast> to reply
From: Spehro Pefhany on 22 Jun 2010 15:57 On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 14:03:05 -0500, "Tim Williams" <tmoranwms(a)charter.net> wrote: >"Joel Koltner" <zapwireDASHgroups(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message news:mI6Un.465228$Vq1.178539(a)en-nntp-03.dc1.easynews.com... >> And I'd like him to find me the transformer in a ceiling fan ... or find >> a PC that doesn't use a "power transformer" in its power supply: >> >> "If you have equipment that can deal with these pseudo-sine waves, that's >> the way to go as they are very efficient. Most electronics have no problem >> with this, as they take the line and make it into DC right away anyway. >> Like a compact fluorescent bulb, or a PC. But some appliances have a >> problem with this, in particular anything with a power transformer in it, >> like an older microwave oven or stereo amp or fluorescent tube fixture or >> ceiling fan." > >Transformer, as in, line voltage goes to a winding around a core. SMPS don't have a transformer at the input, they have a bunch of stuff inbetween. Physically, motors are just as transformery as transformers, though it's certainly a misnomer to be calling them such! > >Someone should make incredibly cheap VFDs suitable for running shaded pole type motors and legacy transformerized equipment, then convert the entire house to DC. Way better power factor for all those SMPS's... > >...Of course, then your 120/240V switchable supplies all croak, which is still most computers. > >Tim Hm... I havn't bought one with a switch for quite a while. Maybe most (all?) of the ones with active PFC are universal input?
From: wmbjkREMOVE on 22 Jun 2010 16:01 On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 13:58:19 -0500, "amdx" <amdx(a)knology.net> wrote: > >"Jim Wilkins" <kb1dal(a)gmail.com> wrote in message >news:6f741741-4c48-4d18-b136-c7cf4e930bc5(a)b29g2000vbl.googlegroups.com... >On Jun 22, 1:16 pm, "amdx" <a...(a)knology.net> wrote: >> ... >> I didn't pay attention at the time but the Yamaha schematic Jim linked to >> was >> not an inverter generator..... >> Mike > >Look at the top of page 21, "...the inverter control unit. > > Sorry, I'm not finding that, either on the page labeled 21 or on pdf page >21. > Any help?? > Mike pg 8 - "economy control switch" section explains variable rpm while loaded, the hallmark of an inverter equipped generator. Wayne
From: Joel Koltner on 22 Jun 2010 16:04
"Tim Williams" <tmoranwms(a)charter.net> wrote in message news:PN7Un.30765$%u7.30048(a)newsfe14.iad... "Transformer, as in, line voltage goes to a winding around a core. SMPS don't have a transformer at the input, they have a bunch of stuff inbetween. Physically, motors are just as transformery as transformers, though it's certainly a misnomer to be calling them such!" Sure, sure... but if you take a look at the bill of materials for a PC's power supply, a "transformer" will definitely be included, whereas for the ceiling fan you'll only see "motor." If someone on a web site claims to be an "expert," I would think they'd be using terms as they're commonly used. Perhaps the one about PC power supplies is splitting hairs. I suppose the way to write the response is to talk about, "directly line-connected transformers -- 120V, 60Hz in the U.S. --" or somesuch, but perhaps that isn't any more useful to the average reader than "power transformer." OK, I admit it, maybe the average person doesn't consider their PC power supply as containing a power transformer... "Someone should make incredibly cheap VFDs suitable for running shaded pole type motors and legacy transformerized equipment, then convert the entire house to DC. Way better power factor for all those SMPS's..." I kinda liked the idea of running the entire house off of 3 phase, 400Hz power... "...Of course, then your 120/240V switchable supplies all croak, which is still most computers." Many such supplies will work off of high-voltage DC directly, I'm told. ---Joel |