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From: Kenneth Tilton on 31 Jul 2010 18:16 David Mark wrote: > On Jul 31, 3:03 pm, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> Nisse Engstr�m wrote: >>> On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 20:13:13 -0400, Kenneth Tilton wrote: >>>> http://teamalgebra.com/ >>> Apparently, I have a flaky keyboard... >> Or unsupported browser or both, but... > > How do you quantify what you "support" with a browser sniffing > framework like qooxdoo? Do you just take their word for it? You lost me there. Are you saying their browser-sniffing can guess wrong? On what percent of users? Hint. > > And I believe Nisse is using the latest Opera. Opera? A tragedy, yes? From qooxdoo: "Opera issues Opera is the most broken browser concerning keyboard events. It supports enough to use the keyboard for navigation but complex key commands cannot be detected. All key combinations containing the Alt key cannot be detected. The modifier flags are only set in keypress events. This makes qx.client.Command in Opera unable to catch most interesting keyboard shortcuts. Opera sets only the keyCode property of the DOM event. Because of that, it is not possible to decide if the code in keypress events is a key code or a char code. Since both codes may overlap, collisions may occur. In need for a consistent solution, the current key handler implementation always prefers the special keys over the normal keys. For example, �s� and �F5� both have a code of 115 in Opera. In this case qooxdoo would prefer �F5� over the �s� key." >> Re the latter, yeah, I need to get that preventDefault back in there in >> re the shortcut. > > Which may or may not be effective. Well, it might not be live yet, but I have code in the dev version now that refuses to handle anything but webkit, gecko, and ie. I'll keep plugging on this issue, but what happened was I tossed the prevent handling at a low level then later tossed all handling of what qooxdoo calls keypress. The former was OK, the latter should have been to still do the preventdefault but no more (ie. no round-trip to server which was ignoring those events anyway). > >> Anyway, I am making headway on the jsMath and can confirm the "mssing >> keys" phenomenon. My test of "without installed TeX fonts" was flawed, >> but that is sorted out now. I am actually developing now without TeX >> fonts installed. Next release later today will work /unless/ TeX fonts >> are installed (but I think I can make it work both ways with a quick >> hack, deeper fix in a day or seven). >> > > Or seventy, by which time qooxdoo will have released a new version to > "support" the latest browsers and all of your patches will have to be > redone. Are you hoping it is seventy, or hoping I get it sorted out tonight? > > You are on a treadmill, Kenny. You really should learn HTML, CSS and > JS before trying to write a Web application. Basically, you are > trying to do algebra before you've learned basic arithmetic. ;) One thing you do not seem to be coming up to speed on as quickly as I thought you might is that I understand fully the trade-offs one undertakes when adopting a library such that (a) in most cases one indeed does not want to adopt a library but (b) in exceptional cases (such as qooxdoo and jsMath) the added value of the library hugely exceeds the effort that will be needed to get along with them. As a corollary, you seem unaware that I am Mr. NIH, not as a bug, but as a feature. And I am using qooxdoo and jsMath ecstatically over how fast I have brought a wysiwyg math editor to the web. Is your brain nothing but one great honking anti-library neuron? kt -- http://www.stuckonalgebra.com "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself." Macworld
From: David Mark on 31 Jul 2010 19:03 On Jul 31, 6:00 pm, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > David Mark wrote: > > On Jul 31, 2:36 pm, Nisse Engström <news.NOSPAM.id...(a)luden.se> wrote: > >> On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 20:13:13 -0400, Kenneth Tilton wrote: > >>> http://teamalgebra.com/ > >> Apparently, I have a flaky keyboard... > > > That's as maybe, but the culprit here is likely Kenny's flaky app. > > >> When I type "g=mc2==" on the [unbookmarkable tab], > > > That I don't mind as I don't think tabbed interfaces should mimic > > navigation. They should persist their state though (e.g. with > > cookies, local storage, etc.) > > >> I get > >> "G0MC200" (and the "2" also triggers a browser shortcut). > >> And there are heaps of other peculiarities on that site. > > > Not unsurprising and it will require debugging a meg of dubious JS to > > track them down. > > Let's see what the browser/engine is first. I already told you. > Team qooxdoo seems to have > run up the white flag on Opera key events. They can't even make it work *with* browser sniffing? Some team you've got there. :( > My investors (me) are > prepared to lose that market. Odd for European developers to give up on a browser that is very popular in Europe. Lately it has gotten a boost from MS offering it as an IE alternative. > Of course if Mr. Mark can provide a > /universal/ HTML API for key events I'll just load his code and embed my > client code that uses it in a qx.ui.embed.Html widget and be singing his > praises too. Do you read this group or just post? I've long since tamed the keyboard (and yes, that includes Opera). But I don't write add-ons for qooxdoo. [...] > > I waded thru more than a little qooxdoo code to determine they had left > the model property off the RadioGroupBox widget. That's too bad. > Doing so was not the > end of the world. Sorry. k > Nothing is the end of world, is it? But one problem after another indicates you would have been better off without qooxdoo.
From: David Mark on 31 Jul 2010 19:20 On Jul 31, 6:16 pm, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > David Mark wrote: > > On Jul 31, 3:03 pm, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Nisse Engström wrote: > >>> On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 20:13:13 -0400, Kenneth Tilton wrote: > >>>> http://teamalgebra.com/ > >>> Apparently, I have a flaky keyboard... > >> Or unsupported browser or both, but... > > > How do you quantify what you "support" with a browser sniffing > > framework like qooxdoo? Do you just take their word for it? > > You lost me there. Are you saying their browser-sniffing can guess > wrong? On what percent of users? Hint. > > > > > And I believe Nisse is using the latest Opera. > > Opera? A tragedy, yes? From qooxdoo: No. It's an excellent browser, despite a few quirks. > > "Opera issues > Opera is the most broken browser concerning keyboard events. What does that mean? It can't handle typing "g=mc2=="? I assure you it can. > It supports > enough to use the keyboard for navigation but complex key commands > cannot be detected. That's a design mistake on the part of the qooxdoo developers and they are attempting to deflect the blame to Opera. > > All key combinations containing the Alt key cannot be detected. Rubbish. And why would they attempt to do something so silly? > The modifier flags are only set in keypress events. Also rubbish. They are making up wild stories. And what if it were true? > This makes > qx.client.Command in Opera unable to catch most interesting keyboard > shortcuts. You don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about (no matter what your definition of "interesting"). > Opera sets only the keyCode property of the DOM event. As with the previous nonsense, that's completely and demonstrably *false*. In other words, they don't know what they are talking about either. > Because of that, > it is not possible to decide if the code in keypress events is a key > code or a char code. Also pure fantasy. You really don't read this group at all, do you? Bad form. > Since both codes may overlap, collisions may occur. Nope. > In need for a consistent solution, the current key handler > implementation always prefers the special keys over the normal keys. Technobabble intended to misdirect inexperienced (and gullible) developers. > For > example, s and F5 both have a code of 115 in Opera. In this case > qooxdoo would prefer F5 over the s key." LOL. You have bet on the proverbial bad pony. > > >> Re the latter, yeah, I need to get that preventDefault back in there in > >> re the shortcut. > > > Which may or may not be effective. > > Well, it might not be live yet, but I have code in the dev version now > that refuses to handle anything but webkit, gecko, and ie. I highly doubt that, considering how many variations of Gecko and Webkit exist. But, even if it were true, it's still a failure. > > I'll keep plugging on this issue, but what happened was I tossed the > prevent handling at a low level then later tossed all handling of what > qooxdoo calls keypress. I suggest you toss the whole thing. ;) > The former was OK, the latter should have been > to still do the preventdefault but no more (ie. no round-trip to server > which was ignoring those events anyway). You can't do round-trips on every key event. As you've been told repeatedly, it's pure lunacy (and doomed to fail). > > > > >> Anyway, I am making headway on the jsMath and can confirm the "mssing > >> keys" phenomenon. My test of "without installed TeX fonts" was flawed, > >> but that is sorted out now. I am actually developing now without TeX > >> fonts installed. Next release later today will work /unless/ TeX fonts > >> are installed (but I think I can make it work both ways with a quick > >> hack, deeper fix in a day or seven). > > > Or seventy, by which time qooxdoo will have released a new version to > > "support" the latest browsers and all of your patches will have to be > > redone. > > Are you hoping it is seventy, or hoping I get it sorted out tonight? I really couldn't care less. Have I not mentioned that? I only comment on your serialized career suicide note to caution others. > > > > > You are on a treadmill, Kenny. You really should learn HTML, CSS and > > JS before trying to write a Web application. Basically, you are > > trying to do algebra before you've learned basic arithmetic. ;) > > One thing you do not seem to be coming up to speed on as quickly as I > thought you might is that I understand fully the trade-offs one > undertakes when adopting a library such that (a) in most cases one > indeed does not want to adopt a library but (b) in exceptional cases > (such as qooxdoo and jsMath) the added value of the library hugely > exceeds the effort that will be needed to get along with them. Considering how confused the qooxdoo developers are about basic keyboard handling, it's hard to see their wares as anything approaching exceptional. > > As a corollary, you seem unaware that I am Mr. NIH, not as a bug, but as > a feature. Translation? > And I am using qooxdoo and jsMath ecstatically over how fast > I have brought a wysiwyg math editor to the web. You are hopelessly deluded. > > Is your brain nothing but one great honking anti-library neuron? We've been over that. Even a child could understand that eschewing obviously bad libraries does not indicate any sort of general "anti- library" sentiment.
From: Kenneth Tilton on 1 Aug 2010 13:10 David Mark wrote: > On Jul 31, 6:00 pm, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Do you read this group or just post? Just post. This NG is not really up to snuff, and deals mostly with stuff I let qooxdoo worry about. > I've long since tamed the > keyboard (and yes, that includes Opera). Cool, I'll check out your code. > But I don't write add-ons > for qooxdoo. You might recall qooxdoo allows one to embed raw Html/js. >> I waded thru more than a little qooxdoo code to determine they had left >> the model property off the RadioGroupBox widget. > > That's too bad. > >> Doing so was not the >> end of the world. Sorry. k >> > > Nothing is the end of world, is it? But one problem after another > indicates you would have been better off without qooxdoo. No, "one problem after another" was jQuery, Dojo, and YUI and the code was impossible to follow. qooxdoo actually started off with a problem (over busy datagrid (does My Library have a datagrid?)) which was insanely easy to fix and has only occasionally had issues while bringing a rather hefty desktop application to the Web: http://teamalgebra.com/ kt -- http://www.stuckonalgebra.com "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself." Macworld
From: Kenneth Tilton on 1 Aug 2010 13:26
David Mark wrote: > On Jul 31, 6:16 pm, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> Opera is the most broken browser concerning keyboard events. > > What does that mean? It can't handle typing "g=mc2=="? I assure you > it can. The question is what key event application is made available to the client in the general case. I'll check it out now that I have the thing somewhat gracefully coping whether or not TeX fonts are installed. > > You can't do round-trips on every key event. As you've been told > repeatedly, it's pure lunacy (and doomed to fail). ....and working: http://teamalgebra.com/ Go figure. By the way, I have not even made an effort yet to optimize the round-trips, the editor is so responsive. You seem unable to absorb the fact that this is an Algebra tutoring platform, not a type-touching trainer. But I am happy to remind you as needed. >> As a corollary, you seem unaware that I am Mr. NIH, not as a bug, but as >> a feature. > > Translation? Generally you are right: libraries are more trouble than they are worth. qooxdoo and jsMath are clear exceptions. > >> And I am using qooxdoo and jsMath ecstatically over how fast >> I have brought a wysiwyg math editor to the web. > > You are hopelessly deluded. > >> Is your brain nothing but one great honking anti-library neuron? > > We've been over that. Even a child could understand that eschewing > obviously bad libraries does not indicate any sort of general "anti- > library" sentiment. I guess not since you are pushing a competitor library /and/ selling your services as a qooxdoo developer. kt -- http://www.stuckonalgebra.com "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself." Macworld |