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From: Dmitry Torokhov on 16 Dec 2009 03:30
On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 08:11:05AM +0100, Takashi Iwai wrote:
> At Tue, 15 Dec 2009 23:03:43 -0800,
> Dmitry Torokhov wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 11:52:00PM -0700, Alex Chiang wrote:
> > > * Dmitry Torokhov <dmitry.torokhov(a)gmail.com>:
> > > > On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 06:05:06PM -0700, Alex Chiang wrote:
> > > > > * Dmitry Torokhov <dmitry.torokhov(a)gmail.com>:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The updated patch is below.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Dmitry
> > > > >
> > > > > Should I test this one or wait one more iteration to address
> > > > > Takashi's last comments?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Actually I think we took the wrong direction with the original patch and
> > > > we should do what other buttonless devices (bcm5974) do: report touchpad
> > > > click as left button and have Synaptics X driver provide enhanced
> > > > support. This way we can have both modes (ClickZones and ClickButtons)
> > > > and users will get to chose (provided that someone takes time to add
> > > > that support to Synaptics driver of course ;) ).
> > > >
> > > > Could you tell me if the below works for you?
> > >
> > > Left clicks work. Right/middle do not (as expected, I guess).
> > >
> > > I liked the behaviour of Takashi's patch a little better wrt what
> > > happens when you try to click/drag, because he disabled movement
> > > in the click area.
> >
> > Are the clicks register only in that special area? Reading Synaptics
> > product description it sounds like entire surface should be clickable.
>
> In the case of ClickZone, the click in the button area is taken as
> clicks, if I understand correctly.
>
> The problem is, however, not about where to click. It's about the
> precision. When you click a pad, your finger slips a little bit in
> millimeter. This already corresponds to a few pixels, and the pointer
> moves away from the point you wanted to click.
>

Right, this will have to be dealt with in X driver.

> In my original patch, I disabled the pointer movement in the button
> area before click for avoiding this problem.
>

However it will not work if you want to do 'ClickButtons' mode where
you don't assign secific areas for clicking.

--
Dmitry
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From: Takashi Iwai on 16 Dec 2009 04:20
At Wed, 16 Dec 2009 00:20:20 -0800,
Dmitry Torokhov wrote:
>
> On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 08:11:05AM +0100, Takashi Iwai wrote:
> > At Tue, 15 Dec 2009 23:03:43 -0800,
> > Dmitry Torokhov wrote:
> > >
> > > On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 11:52:00PM -0700, Alex Chiang wrote:
> > > > * Dmitry Torokhov <dmitry.torokhov(a)gmail.com>:
> > > > > On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 06:05:06PM -0700, Alex Chiang wrote:
> > > > > > * Dmitry Torokhov <dmitry.torokhov(a)gmail.com>:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The updated patch is below.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Dmitry
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Should I test this one or wait one more iteration to address
> > > > > > Takashi's last comments?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Actually I think we took the wrong direction with the original patch and
> > > > > we should do what other buttonless devices (bcm5974) do: report touchpad
> > > > > click as left button and have Synaptics X driver provide enhanced
> > > > > support. This way we can have both modes (ClickZones and ClickButtons)
> > > > > and users will get to chose (provided that someone takes time to add
> > > > > that support to Synaptics driver of course ;) ).
> > > > >
> > > > > Could you tell me if the below works for you?
> > > >
> > > > Left clicks work. Right/middle do not (as expected, I guess).
> > > >
> > > > I liked the behaviour of Takashi's patch a little better wrt what
> > > > happens when you try to click/drag, because he disabled movement
> > > > in the click area.
> > >
> > > Are the clicks register only in that special area? Reading Synaptics
> > > product description it sounds like entire surface should be clickable.
> >
> > In the case of ClickZone, the click in the button area is taken as
> > clicks, if I understand correctly.
> >
> > The problem is, however, not about where to click. It's about the
> > precision. When you click a pad, your finger slips a little bit in
> > millimeter. This already corresponds to a few pixels, and the pointer
> > moves away from the point you wanted to click.
> >
>
> Right, this will have to be dealt with in X driver.
>
> > In my original patch, I disabled the pointer movement in the button
> > area before click for avoiding this problem.
> >
>
> However it will not work if you want to do 'ClickButtons' mode where
> you don't assign secific areas for clicking.

Yes. And the area is more or less fixed.


Takashi
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From: Dmitry Torokhov on 16 Dec 2009 12:30
On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 10:17:39AM +0100, Takashi Iwai wrote:
> At Wed, 16 Dec 2009 00:23:16 -0800,
> Dmitry Torokhov wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 08:14:15AM +0100, Takashi Iwai wrote:
> > > At Tue, 15 Dec 2009 22:56:53 -0800,
> > > Dmitry Torokhov wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 07:50:54AM +0100, Takashi Iwai wrote:
> > > > > At Tue, 15 Dec 2009 18:59:34 -0800,
> > > > > Dmitry Torokhov wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 06:05:06PM -0700, Alex Chiang wrote:
> > > > > > > * Dmitry Torokhov <dmitry.torokhov(a)gmail.com>:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The updated patch is below.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Dmitry
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Should I test this one or wait one more iteration to address
> > > > > > > Takashi's last comments?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Actually I think we took the wrong direction with the original patch and
> > > > > > we should do what other buttonless devices (bcm5974) do: report touchpad
> > > > > > click as left button and have Synaptics X driver provide enhanced
> > > > > > support. This way we can have both modes (ClickZones and ClickButtons)
> > > > > > and users will get to chose (provided that someone takes time to add
> > > > > > that support to Synaptics driver of course ;) ).
> > > > >
> > > > > My concern is, still, how would you identify this device. Will you
> > > > > extend also some ioctls to expose caps and extcaps? Otherwise it's
> > > > > difficult to identify this device automatically from the user-space.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > No.. Synaptics without right button == ClickPad.
> > >
> > > So, is there only Clickpad device that has a single button?
> > > No other option?
> > >
> >
> > I have not seen any other Synaptics devices using less than 2 buttons.
> >
> > > > > The user-space can know that it's button-less, yes. But, how can it
> > > > > know whether the device should be emulated via ClickZone?
> > > > > We can use a driver option to x11 synaptics driver for that, as I
> > > > > already sent you another patch. However, the driver option is
> > > > > nowadays not preferred because xorg.conf is being dead on new
> > > > > systems...
> > > >
> > > > Driver still takes options, from UDEV/HAL. We could pick one behavior
> > > > by default and ovverride, by box vendor/model (DMI).
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Or maybe HAL (or whatever upcoming one) can check the vendor/product
> > > > > id of the machine (not the device) to provide the information. OTOH
> > > > > this will also need frequent updates.
> > > >
> > > > Hopefully vendors won;t be flip/flopping between ClickZone and
> > > > ClickButtons too much. Still option is better than hardcoding ClickZone
> > > > for everyone.
> > >
> > > Yeah, I agree that hard-coding isn't good, and that's why I first
> > > posted separated patches. OTOH, the kernel-side hack makes the device
> > > working *as is* even without changing anything else.
> > >
> >
> > For "ClickZone" - yes, but not all users would want this I guess and not
> > all laptops will have that zone marked. Pushing it off to userspace
> > gives more flexibility, including the ability to change zone size, etc.
>
> As mentioned, I agree basically for the user-space implementation for
> a long term solution. My point is that the kernel hack can be
> regarded as a quick hack for a short term while you have no patch yet
> for the user-space driver. It'll take time until the user-space
> update will be deployed in many distros while people tend to update
> only the kernel.

I strongly disagree here. The fact that some users are more likely to
update kernel than userspace bits is immaterial, besides such users can
easily patch their kernels with out-of-tree patches. Additionally kernel
patch would prevent writing proper userspace support because userspace
will not be able to reconstruct full device state (you are filtering out
some events).

--
Dmitry
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From: Alex Chiang on 16 Dec 2009 12:40
* Dmitry Torokhov <dmitry.torokhov(a)gmail.com>:
> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 11:52:00PM -0700, Alex Chiang wrote:
> > * Dmitry Torokhov <dmitry.torokhov(a)gmail.com>:
> > > On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 06:05:06PM -0700, Alex Chiang wrote:
> > > > * Dmitry Torokhov <dmitry.torokhov(a)gmail.com>:
> > > > >
> > > > > The updated patch is below.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Dmitry
> > > >
> > > > Should I test this one or wait one more iteration to address
> > > > Takashi's last comments?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Actually I think we took the wrong direction with the original patch and
> > > we should do what other buttonless devices (bcm5974) do: report touchpad
> > > click as left button and have Synaptics X driver provide enhanced
> > > support. This way we can have both modes (ClickZones and ClickButtons)
> > > and users will get to chose (provided that someone takes time to add
> > > that support to Synaptics driver of course ;) ).
> > >
> > > Could you tell me if the below works for you?
> >
> > Left clicks work. Right/middle do not (as expected, I guess).
> >
> > I liked the behaviour of Takashi's patch a little better wrt what
> > happens when you try to click/drag, because he disabled movement
> > in the click area.
>
> Are the clicks register only in that special area? Reading Synaptics
> product description it sounds like entire surface should be clickable.

Well, maybe in theory the entire surface is clickable.

My observation is that the physical design resembles a lever on a
fulcrum though, with the fulcrum at the edge near the keyboard.

Pressing the click zone is mechanically nice, since you are away
from the fulcrum. Moving "up" towards the keyboard, there seems
to be much less mechanical advantage, and the surface doesn't
seem so clicky.

But really, I was talking about what Takashi mentioned in a later
mail, namely that trying to actually click with the click zone in
a precise manner is difficult because as you press the surface
down, the touch pad registers some movement, and moves the
pointer away from the area you're trying to click.

Fitts would have a fit. ;)

/ac

--
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From: Takashi Iwai on 16 Dec 2009 12:40
At Wed, 16 Dec 2009 09:24:45 -0800,
Dmitry Torokhov wrote:
>
> On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 10:17:39AM +0100, Takashi Iwai wrote:
> > At Wed, 16 Dec 2009 00:23:16 -0800,
> > Dmitry Torokhov wrote:
> > >
> > > On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 08:14:15AM +0100, Takashi Iwai wrote:
> > > > At Tue, 15 Dec 2009 22:56:53 -0800,
> > > > Dmitry Torokhov wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 07:50:54AM +0100, Takashi Iwai wrote:
> > > > > > At Tue, 15 Dec 2009 18:59:34 -0800,
> > > > > > Dmitry Torokhov wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 06:05:06PM -0700, Alex Chiang wrote:
> > > > > > > > * Dmitry Torokhov <dmitry.torokhov(a)gmail.com>:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The updated patch is below.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > Dmitry
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Should I test this one or wait one more iteration to address
> > > > > > > > Takashi's last comments?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Actually I think we took the wrong direction with the original patch and
> > > > > > > we should do what other buttonless devices (bcm5974) do: report touchpad
> > > > > > > click as left button and have Synaptics X driver provide enhanced
> > > > > > > support. This way we can have both modes (ClickZones and ClickButtons)
> > > > > > > and users will get to chose (provided that someone takes time to add
> > > > > > > that support to Synaptics driver of course ;) ).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My concern is, still, how would you identify this device. Will you
> > > > > > extend also some ioctls to expose caps and extcaps? Otherwise it's
> > > > > > difficult to identify this device automatically from the user-space.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > No.. Synaptics without right button == ClickPad.
> > > >
> > > > So, is there only Clickpad device that has a single button?
> > > > No other option?
> > > >
> > >
> > > I have not seen any other Synaptics devices using less than 2 buttons.
> > >
> > > > > > The user-space can know that it's button-less, yes. But, how can it
> > > > > > know whether the device should be emulated via ClickZone?
> > > > > > We can use a driver option to x11 synaptics driver for that, as I
> > > > > > already sent you another patch. However, the driver option is
> > > > > > nowadays not preferred because xorg.conf is being dead on new
> > > > > > systems...
> > > > >
> > > > > Driver still takes options, from UDEV/HAL. We could pick one behavior
> > > > > by default and ovverride, by box vendor/model (DMI).
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Or maybe HAL (or whatever upcoming one) can check the vendor/product
> > > > > > id of the machine (not the device) to provide the information. OTOH
> > > > > > this will also need frequent updates.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hopefully vendors won;t be flip/flopping between ClickZone and
> > > > > ClickButtons too much. Still option is better than hardcoding ClickZone
> > > > > for everyone.
> > > >
> > > > Yeah, I agree that hard-coding isn't good, and that's why I first
> > > > posted separated patches. OTOH, the kernel-side hack makes the device
> > > > working *as is* even without changing anything else.
> > > >
> > >
> > > For "ClickZone" - yes, but not all users would want this I guess and not
> > > all laptops will have that zone marked. Pushing it off to userspace
> > > gives more flexibility, including the ability to change zone size, etc.
> >
> > As mentioned, I agree basically for the user-space implementation for
> > a long term solution. My point is that the kernel hack can be
> > regarded as a quick hack for a short term while you have no patch yet
> > for the user-space driver. It'll take time until the user-space
> > update will be deployed in many distros while people tend to update
> > only the kernel.
>
> I strongly disagree here. The fact that some users are more likely to
> update kernel than userspace bits is immaterial, besides such users can
> easily patch their kernels with out-of-tree patches. Additionally kernel
> patch would prevent writing proper userspace support because userspace
> will not be able to reconstruct full device state (you are filtering out
> some events).

Dmitry, as I clearly wrote a couple of times, I *DO* agree with the
user-space solution. But you have no that solution yet ready, right?
That's why I mentioned about the kernel patch, for a poor man who
can't use the device properly yet. If you can get things ready for
use, there can't be any complain.

So, honestly, I don't care which approach you take. But I just hope
it'll be finished quickly enough :)


thanks,

Takashi
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