[unsubscribed posters] which has nothing to do withRe: Annoying problem
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From: Drew Jensen on 9 Mar 2010 16:45 NoOp wrote: > On 03/09/2010 12:06 PM, Barbara Duprey wrote: > >> Mike Scott wrote: >> >>> Harold Fuchs wrote: >>> ... >>> >>>> If someone is going to send the unsubscribed person a message, why >>>> not simply send him/her the responder's answer with the comment >>>> "forwarding to unsubscribed OP"? >>>> >>>> >>> I'd point out here that (a) you can't be quite sure the originator is >>> unsubscribed (your present message is so flagged, but offhand I'd say >>> you were a regular :-} ), and (b) what's to stop the OP being deluged >>> with kindly-meant responses all saying the same?? >>> >> There are certainly some exceptions -- like names we recognize, even >> under unsubscribed IDs -- that shouldn't get the canned message. It's >> one of the possible problems with automation, there'd have to be some >> sort of exception list maintained. As for multiple copies to the OP, >> that doesn't seem to happen now; there aren't very many people on that >> unofficial "team" and we tend to delay the response enough that we're >> not likely to duplicate. If the "team" were more formalized, we could do >> something like having these messages go to a separate account that those >> on the team would share, similar to the moderators list. >> > > In the past the excuses for allowing unsubs to post to the list were > that there were insufficient alternatives for a new user to get > feedback/answers. The 3rd party forums were somewhat sketchy, etc., etc. > However, OOo has had it's own web based forum for some time now: > http://support.openoffice.org/index.html > [The OpenOffice.org Community Forum > The premier forum for OpenOffice.org users; immensely useful and > recommended] > http://user.services.openoffice.org/ > http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/index.php > > Note that the "Users Mail List" on > http://support.openoffice.org/index.html states: > > <quote> > Users Mail List (Subscribe / Archives) > OpenOffice.org Project community support provided by a network of > hundreds of experienced users. You must be subscribed to post messages. > </quote> > > Therefore, the answer is simple. Abide by the posted policy of *You must > be subscribed to post messages* and be done with it. All of this to and > fro about unsub's has detracted the actual purpose of these lists, and > has created more enemies for OOo than gained. > > Then of course you have the opposite problem whereby some "new user" has > subscribed without knowing what a mail list is, then repeatedly complain > because they can't get off of the list. Currently over on the users list > you've got 'Gmail' with his/her repeated request to unsubscribe: > > <quote> > Please urgently stop all e-mails to my computer . I have send a lot of > mails asking to stop this immediately. > </quote> > > I looked up all posts by 'Gmail': payrollexcel(a)gmail.com and his very > first post (of 11) on 08 March 2010 is: "Unsubscribe please". So how did > 'Gmail' get subscribed in the first place? > > And the latest is Dennie Willams with: > > <quote> > On 03/09/2010 08:23 AM, dennie williams wrote: > >> I FEEL EXACTLY THE SAME WAY AS DOUG MacPHERSON! It is bordering on a >> complaint to the Internet authorities that you are flooding us with >> > emails > >> totally unrelated to us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >> Dennie Williams >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "MacPherson, Doug E. (CA - Toronto)" <dmacpherson(a)deloitte.ca> >> Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 9:37 AM >> To: <users(a)openoffice.org> >> Subject: RE: [users] Bracketing List Items Together >> >> >>> Can someone please remove my address from the subscription list for this >>> forum (dmacpherson(a)deloitte.ca)! I have tried the auto remove and sent >>> numerous notes to the manual address and still no action. My address has >>> not changed in years so that is not the problem. This is way past >>> ridiculous and bordering on criminal that I cannot get off this list. I >>> just wish there was a third party I could appeal to get this fixed. >>> >>> Doug >>> > </quote> > > Lookup for Dennie Williams:denniew(a)optonline.net shows exactly one post > - the one posted above. Note that Doug has apparently been trying to get > off the list since 2008. > > Howdy, Before jumping in with opinions could I ask a question, please. OO.o sprouts more then just the English users ML, it has a German list, French, and others - yes. Do these other MLs also experience these problems? Do they also take non subscribed postings? Do they have problems with people that can not seem to un-subscribe? Surely someone reading this knows the answer to those questions - so - would you mind sharing. Thanks Drew --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: discuss-unsubscribe(a)openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: discuss-help(a)openoffice.org
From: Bernhard Dippold on 9 Mar 2010 17:26 Hi Drew, all, sorry for double posting - my mails to this list seem to be sent automatically via my OOo alias (all other lists work fine...) If any moderator reads my first mail, just reject it please... Drew Jensen schrieb: > [...] > Before jumping in with opinions could I ask a question, please. > > OO.o sprouts more then just the English users ML, it has a German > list, French, and others - yes. > > Do these other MLs also experience these problems? > > Do they also take non subscribed postings? If I remember correctly (the time I've been moderating some germanophone lists is over for a few years now) these lists never allowed unsubscribed postings without moderation. During moderation one of the moderators decided to let pass a valid mail and sent a standardized mail directly to the unsubscribed user telling him/her about moderation, benefits of subscription, where to read possible replies and so on. This mail has been CC'd to the other moderators, so all of them have been informed and didn't need to reply themselves. For moderation of the art mailing list I once translated this message to English: http://marketing.openoffice.org/servlets/ProjectDocumentView?documentID=3720 As all the people on the list knew about the moderator's efforts, nobody (in fact nearly nobody) had to comment on unsubscribed users - whether they CC'd them in their replies or not. > > Do they have problems with people that can not seem to un-subscribe? Yes - from time to time. But if there is someone with the right to unsubscribe others watching the list, every unsubscribe thread can become quite short: 1st mail: Please unsubscribe me! 2nd mail: I did it for you - Good bye! If the second mail would contain a comment about how to unsubscribe when people join again a list, nobody would bother... Main point would be: - nobody without the privilege to unsubscribe others needs to reply to unsubscribe mails. - nobody needs to tell unsubscribed users about the mails they might miss. - nobody needs to tell other people replying to the question that the original poster is not subscribed. Best regards Bernhard --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: discuss-unsubscribe(a)openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: discuss-help(a)openoffice.org
From: Barbara Duprey on 9 Mar 2010 20:15 NoOp wrote: > On 03/09/2010 12:06 PM, Barbara Duprey wrote: > >> Mike Scott wrote: >> >>> Harold Fuchs wrote: >>> ... >>> >>>> If someone is going to send the unsubscribed person a message, why >>>> not simply send him/her the responder's answer with the comment >>>> "forwarding to unsubscribed OP"? >>>> >>>> >>> I'd point out here that (a) you can't be quite sure the originator is >>> unsubscribed (your present message is so flagged, but offhand I'd say >>> you were a regular :-} ), and (b) what's to stop the OP being deluged >>> with kindly-meant responses all saying the same?? >>> >> There are certainly some exceptions -- like names we recognize, even >> under unsubscribed IDs -- that shouldn't get the canned message. It's >> one of the possible problems with automation, there'd have to be some >> sort of exception list maintained. As for multiple copies to the OP, >> that doesn't seem to happen now; there aren't very many people on that >> unofficial "team" and we tend to delay the response enough that we're >> not likely to duplicate. If the "team" were more formalized, we could do >> something like having these messages go to a separate account that those >> on the team would share, similar to the moderators list. >> > > In the past the excuses for allowing unsubs to post to the list were > that there were insufficient alternatives for a new user to get > feedback/answers. The 3rd party forums were somewhat sketchy, etc., etc. > However, OOo has had it's own web based forum for some time now: > http://support.openoffice.org/index.html > [The OpenOffice.org Community Forum > The premier forum for OpenOffice.org users; immensely useful and > recommended] > http://user.services.openoffice.org/ > http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/index.php > > Note that the "Users Mail List" on > http://support.openoffice.org/index.html states: > > <quote> > Users Mail List (Subscribe / Archives) > OpenOffice.org Project community support provided by a network of > hundreds of experienced users. You must be subscribed to post messages. > </quote> > > Therefore, the answer is simple. Abide by the posted policy of *You must > be subscribed to post messages* and be done with it. All of this to and > fro about unsub's has detracted the actual purpose of these lists, and > has created more enemies for OOo than gained. > The "excuses" also include the fact that many people are far more comfortable with e-mail than with forums or newsgroups, while still not wanting the kind of volume generated on this list or, especially, the users list. The policy you're quoting has theoretically been in place for years, but though the discussion about whether or not to require subscription has raged for years, there has never been a consensus. The kind of message I'm describing should allow the list to operate without the current overhead of CC'ing, forwarding, telling people that the unsub has probably not seen their message, complaining about this overhead, and so on.... The unsub would be informed off-list about how to follow their own threads. They could then focus on their own concerns and would be able to see, and respond to, the messages. Meanwhile, the vast majority of list members would neither know nor care about subscription status. Nor would they be pestered by messages like the one I sent to Johnny that started this whole discussion -- which is, indeed, OT for the original subject, but I think a valid one for the "discuss" list. > Then of course you have the opposite problem whereby some "new user" has > subscribed without knowing what a mail list is, then repeatedly complain > because they can't get off of the list. Currently over on the users list > you've got 'Gmail' with his/her repeated request to unsubscribe: > > <quote> > Please urgently stop all e-mails to my computer . I have send a lot of > mails asking to stop this immediately. > </quote> > .... and forcing subscription would certainly generate more of these. There are a lot of legitimate causes (not just laziness or stupidity!) for people to have difficulty with unsubscribing; for anybody who is interested, I can send you the material I've put together on this. And there does seem to be a hole that allows people to be subscribed without the kind of confirmation that is normally required; I've been asking them off-list for explanations of how they got there, without any luck yet. > I looked up all posts by 'Gmail': payrollexcel(a)gmail.com and his very > first post (of 11) on 08 March 2010 is: "Unsubscribe please". So how did > 'Gmail' get subscribed in the first place? > > And the latest is Dennie Willams with: > > <quote> > On 03/09/2010 08:23 AM, dennie williams wrote: > >> I FEEL EXACTLY THE SAME WAY AS DOUG MacPHERSON! It is bordering on a >> complaint to the Internet authorities that you are flooding us with >> > emails > >> totally unrelated to us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >> Dennie Williams >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "MacPherson, Doug E. (CA - Toronto)" <dmacpherson(a)deloitte.ca> >> Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 9:37 AM >> To: <users(a)openoffice.org> >> Subject: RE: [users] Bracketing List Items Together >> >> >>> Can someone please remove my address from the subscription list for this >>> forum (dmacpherson(a)deloitte.ca)! I have tried the auto remove and sent >>> numerous notes to the manual address and still no action. My address has >>> not changed in years so that is not the problem. This is way past >>> ridiculous and bordering on criminal that I cannot get off this list. I >>> just wish there was a third party I could appeal to get this fixed. >>> >>> Doug >>> > </quote> > > Lookup for Dennie Williams:denniew(a)optonline.net shows exactly one post > - the one posted above. Note that Doug has apparently been trying to get > off the list since 2008. Until recently, there has not been an active list owner for users and discuss -- now there is, so the /listname/-owner(a)openoffice.org, on these two lists at least, is a viable path to take (but only as a last resort, please) in resolving these issues. Paul works hard at trying to identify these subscriptions and get them off the list, but it can be very difficult even for him sometimes. He has already followed up with Dennie, that situation is probably resolved. I'll check into the others, can't remember whether I responded to them offline or not. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: discuss-unsubscribe(a)openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: discuss-help(a)openoffice.org
From: Drew Jensen on 9 Mar 2010 23:55 Nino Novak wrote: > On Tuesday 09 March 2010 22:45, Drew Jensen wrote: > > >> Howdy, >> >> Before jumping in with opinions could I ask a question, please. >> >> OO.o sprouts more then just the English users ML, it has a German >> list, French, and others - yes. >> >> Do these other MLs also experience these problems? >> > > Yepp. > > German users-List: (overall mail frequency: 24/day [1]) > Hello Nino, Thanks for that. Really! - 24 emails a day. The germanophone ML, so let's just make it easy and figure Germany, Austria and Switzerland as the locales from which the majority of the list user pool comes from. Pulling a number from the air let's say 12.5 million users, give or take. (sound about right?) For that user community there has been active support from at least 2 web forums for quite a while, Also a strong support base from independent vendors in those countries. For the anglophone ML then Australia, UK, US let's say 28 million users in the pool, give or take. Run the numbers for the list Feb 2007 - Jan 2008 - 85/day Feb 2008 - Jan 2009 - 56/day Feb 2009 - Jan 2010 - 29/day 2007 to 2008 change could be , I suppose, the user.services forum coming on-line, oooForum has remained active giving the en user pool 2 web forums, matching the de community, and 56 emails per/day seems about right then ratio wise. 2009, I don't know. Best wishes, Drew --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: discuss-unsubscribe(a)openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: discuss-help(a)openoffice.org
From: Mike Scott on 10 Mar 2010 02:54
Barbara Duprey wrote: ..... >> <quote> >> Please urgently stop all e-mails to my computer . I have send a lot of >> mails asking to stop this immediately. >> </quote> >> > > ... and forcing subscription would certainly generate more of these. > There are a lot of legitimate causes (not just laziness or stupidity!) > for people to have difficulty with unsubscribing; for anybody who is > interested, I can send you the material I've put together on this. And > there does seem to be a hole that allows people to be subscribed without > the kind of confirmation that is normally required; I've been asking > them off-list for explanations of how they got there, without any luck yet. IIRC there was some suspicion (on 'users') that the less scrupulous 'vendors' of OOo were subscribing their customers as a means of providing their so-called support. The mechanics were never clear though, as the user would still have had to respond to the confirmation email. But maybe people do this without understanding the ramifications, or maybe just forget they ever did it. But as I've suggested previously, if a regular 'do you still want to be subscribed' message were sent out (default on no reply - removed from list) then this would remove unwitting newbies fairly quickly. Maybe there could be the initial confirmation, then a handful of monthly requests, then perhaps even stop on the assumption the subscriber now knows what they're doing. Just an idea to toss into the mix. -- Mike Scott --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: discuss-unsubscribe(a)openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: discuss-help(a)openoffice.org |