A GRAND ILLUSION OF TIME
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From: Thomas Heger on 20 Jun 2010 04:26 Mathal schrieb: > On Jun 19, 7:51 pm, Peter Riedt <rie...(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: >> On Jun 18, 11:19 pm, harald <h...(a)swissonline.ch> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Jun 18, 4:14 am, Peter Riedt <rie...(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: >>>> On Jun 17, 1:30 pm, Thomas Heger <ttt_...(a)web.de> wrote: >>> [..] >>>> Thomas, clocks divide a period of 24 hours into 3600 minutes or >>>> 86400 seconds or >>>> smaller divisions using a mechanical process such as a pendulum >>>> swing that is governed >>>> by the law of inertia. They do as you say count something that >>>> occurs repeatedly but there is >>>> no timekeeping by nature including forces or laws that vary the >>>> rate of time. >>> Here you confuse (on purpose?) a human concept ("time") with a >>> physical instrument (a clock). Do you claim that inertia and forces do >>> not affect clock rate? Evidence shows otherwise. >> Harald, no confusion here. The clock is a device to measure time >> according to >> human concepts and requirements. A clock does not equal time. Forces >> affect >> clock rates, i.e. the greater a gravitational attraction is, the >> faster the weights >> that drive a pendulum clock will descend. >> >> Peter Riedt > > You have that backwards Peter. Increased gravity slows the rate of > time. Increased velocity slows time. You are right, gravity alters the > rate of time. You, like almost everybody else, are mixing time and time-interval and treat it like the same. The current time is always now and yesterday is now minus one day and tomorrow is now plus one day. You cannot divide 'now'. There are no fractions of it. Only days have fractions, like hours and minutes. Maybe you mean, higher gravity would make the day longer. Well yes, that would happen. TH
From: harald on 20 Jun 2010 05:30 On Jun 20, 4:51 am, Peter Riedt <rie...(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > On Jun 18, 11:19 pm, harald <h...(a)swissonline.ch> wrote: > > > > > On Jun 18, 4:14 am, Peter Riedt <rie...(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > > > > On Jun 17, 1:30 pm, Thomas Heger <ttt_...(a)web.de> wrote: > > > [..] > > > > Thomas, clocks divide a period of 24 hours into 3600 minutes or > > > 86400 seconds or > > > smaller divisions using a mechanical process such as a pendulum > > > swing that is governed > > > by the law of inertia. They do as you say count something that > > > occurs repeatedly but there is > > > no timekeeping by nature including forces or laws that vary the > > > rate of time. > > > Here you confuse (on purpose?) a human concept ("time") with a > > physical instrument (a clock). Do you claim that inertia and forces do > > not affect clock rate? Evidence shows otherwise. > > Harald, no confusion here. The clock is a device to measure time > according to > human concepts and requirements. A clock does not equal time. Forces > affect clock rates, i.e. the greater a gravitational attraction is, the > faster the weights > that drive a pendulum clock will descend. > > Peter Riedt Peter indeed, "time" has been defined based on clocks, just as the "mass" definition is based on weights. Consequently, if clocks and what they measure (the progress of physical processes) slow down, one may say that "time" slows down - just as we say that temperature drops when thermometers and what they measure goes down. Harald
From: mpc755 on 20 Jun 2010 09:56 On Jun 16, 4:04 am, Peter Riedt <rie...(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > A GRAND ILLUSION OF TIME > Time is a human concept; it requires an intelligent memory (such as > the human brain) to have relevance. Time and the notions of past, > present and future were invented by man to order events into a > sequence by identifying them as having occurred before, during or > after other events. Present or current time is a human sensation > caused by observing material objects not affected by change or > perceiving a sequence of macro events through human sensory facilities > as still happening or anticipating them when in fact they are already > physically completed or have not yet started. A unit of time is an > arbitrary time interval established for practical human purposes and > derived from and based on a repeatable cyclical physical process. > Duration is a period of time starting and ending with specific events > identifiable by man and separated by his units of time. All time > concepts are used by man to understand, describe and predict the > causes and effects of natural processes. > > While time is essential to man, it does not exist in the universe or > in nature as an absolute or relative entity or anything at all. Nature > is concerned only with the state of the world, as it exists at a given > moment. It does not know of the past or the future. The physical state > of the universe and the extent and direction of the forces in it at > each moment is the cause of its state at the next moment and each past > or future moment is not planned, predicted, measured or remembered by > nature. Time, whichever way defined by man, is not required for nature > to function or progress. > > Peter Riedt Time is a concept. The rate at which an atomic clock 'ticks' has nothing to do with time. A brother is on a space ship which orbits the Earth. The other brother is on the Earth. Both brothers measure time by the location of the Earth with respect to the Sun based upon the distant stars. Both brothers conclude one year has passed at the same instant regardless of how many times their atomic clocks have 'ticked'. If one, or both, of the clocks do not say one year has passed then the clock did not 'tick' at the appropriate rate. 'On Einsteins resolution of the twin clock paradox' http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/dec252005/2009.pdf "Concluding note Einsteins paper in 1918 was apparently written on advise from friends to respond to the critics of special relativity, in manner that was appropriate for a scientist defending his theory. The very fact that Einstein used the gravitational time dilation predicted by the theory of general relativity, invented ten years after the formulation of special relativity, to justify the asymmetrical time dilation of transported clocks provides some support to the genuineness of the alleged reality of the paradox within special relativity." The rate at which an atomic clock 'ticks' is based upon the aether pressure in which it exists. In terms of motion, the speed of a GPS satellite with respect to the aether causes it to displace more aether and for that aether to exert more pressure on the clock in the GPS satellite than the aether pressure associated with a clock at rest with respect to the Earth. This causes the GPS satellite clock to "result in a delay of about 7 ìs/day". The aether pressure associated with the aether displaced by the Earth exerts less pressure on the GPS satellite than a similar clock at rest on the Earth" causing the GPS clocks to appear faster by about 45 ìs/day". The aether pressure associated with the speed at which the GPS satellite moves with respect to the aether and the aether pressure associated with the aether displaced by the Earth causes "clocks on the GPS satellites [to] tick approximately 38 ìs/day faster than clocks on the ground." (quoted text from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_relativity_on_GPS). There is a different amount of aether pressure on the brother in the space ship circling the Earth than there is on the brother on the Earth and this aether pressure is affecting the molecules and atoms which each brother consists of. There are so many other factors which play a much greater part in the aging of the brothers. Radiation, lack of gravity, how the food they eat is digested, and other factors contribute to the aging of the brothers much more than the rate at which their associated atomic clocks tick. What those who do not understand time is a concept then suggest is to make everything completely equal between the two brothers. If everything is made completely equal then the associated atomic clocks tick at the same rate. If the brothers are in a state where their associated atomic clocks 'tick' at different rates then there is much more going on in their respective environments which are affecting the rate at which they age then the rate at which their associated clocks 'tick'. To suggest the brothers age at the rate at which their associated atomic clock 'tick' is silly.
From: BURT on 20 Jun 2010 17:08 On Jun 20, 6:56 am, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Jun 16, 4:04 am, Peter Riedt <rie...(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > > > A GRAND ILLUSION OF TIME > > Time is a human concept; it requires an intelligent memory (such as > > the human brain) to have relevance. Time and the notions of past, > > present and future were invented by man to order events into a > > sequence by identifying them as having occurred before, during or > > after other events. Present or current time is a human sensation > > caused by observing material objects not affected by change or > > perceiving a sequence of macro events through human sensory facilities > > as still happening or anticipating them when in fact they are already > > physically completed or have not yet started. A unit of time is an > > arbitrary time interval established for practical human purposes and > > derived from and based on a repeatable cyclical physical process. > > Duration is a period of time starting and ending with specific events > > identifiable by man and separated by his units of time. All time > > concepts are used by man to understand, describe and predict the > > causes and effects of natural processes. > > > While time is essential to man, it does not exist in the universe or > > in nature as an absolute or relative entity or anything at all. Nature > > is concerned only with the state of the world, as it exists at a given > > moment. It does not know of the past or the future. The physical state > > of the universe and the extent and direction of the forces in it at > > each moment is the cause of its state at the next moment and each past > > or future moment is not planned, predicted, measured or remembered by > > nature. Time, whichever way defined by man, is not required for nature > > to function or progress. > > > Peter Riedt > > Time is a concept. > > The rate at which an atomic clock 'ticks' has nothing to do with time. > > A brother is on a space ship which orbits the Earth. The other brother > is on the Earth. Both brothers measure time by the location of the > Earth with respect to the Sun based upon the distant stars. > > Both brothers conclude one year has passed at the same instant > regardless of how many times their atomic clocks have 'ticked'. If > one, or both, of the clocks do not say one year has passed then the > clock did not 'tick' at the appropriate rate. > > 'On Einsteins resolution of the twin clock paradox'http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/dec252005/2009.pdf > > "Concluding note > Einsteins paper in 1918 was apparently written on advise from friends > to respond to the critics of special relativity, in manner that was > appropriate for a scientist defending his theory. The very fact that > Einstein used the gravitational time dilation predicted by the theory > of general relativity, invented ten years after the formulation of > special relativity, to justify the asymmetrical time dilation of > transported clocks provides some support to the genuineness of the > alleged reality of the paradox within special relativity." > > The rate at which an atomic clock 'ticks' is based upon the aether > pressure in which it exists. In terms of motion, the speed of a GPS > satellite with respect to the aether causes it to displace more aether > and for that aether to exert more pressure on the clock in the GPS > satellite than the aether pressure associated with a clock at rest > with respect to the Earth. This causes the GPS satellite clock to > "result in a delay of about 7 ìs/day". The aether pressure associated > with the aether displaced by the Earth exerts less pressure on the GPS > satellite than a similar clock at rest on the Earth" causing the GPS > clocks to appear faster by about 45 ìs/day". The aether pressure > associated with the speed at which the GPS satellite moves with > respect to the aether and the aether pressure associated with the > aether displaced by the Earth causes "clocks on the GPS satellites > [to] tick approximately 38 ìs/day faster than clocks on the ground." > (quoted text fromhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_relativity_on_GPS). > > There is a different amount of aether pressure on the brother in the > space ship circling the Earth than there is on the brother on the > Earth and this aether pressure is affecting the molecules and atoms > which each brother consists of. There are so many other factors which > play a much greater part in the aging of the brothers. Radiation, lack > of gravity, how the food they eat is digested, and other factors > contribute to the aging of the brothers much more than the rate at > which their associated atomic clocks tick. What those who do not > understand time is a concept then suggest is to make everything > completely equal between the two brothers. If everything is made > completely equal then the associated atomic clocks tick at the same > rate. > > If the brothers are in a state where their associated atomic clocks > 'tick' at different rates then there is much more going on in their > respective environments which are affecting the rate at which they age > then the rate at which their associated clocks 'tick'. > > To suggest the brothers age at the rate at which their associated > atomic clock 'tick' is silly.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Science talks in concepts but in the end it knows they are simply reality. Mitch Raemsch
From: mpc755 on 20 Jun 2010 17:38
On Jun 20, 5:08 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > Science talks in concepts but in the end it knows they are simply > reality. > > Mitch Raemsch Time is a concept. The rate at which an atomic clock 'ticks' has nothing to do with time. A brother is on a space ship which orbits the Earth. The other brother is on the Earth. Both brothers measure time by the location of the Earth with respect to the Sun based upon the distant stars. Both brothers conclude one year has passed at the same instant regardless of how many times their atomic clocks have 'ticked'. If one, or both, of the clocks do not say one year has passed then the clock did not 'tick' at the appropriate rate. 'On Einsteins resolution of the twin clock paradox' http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/dec252005/2009.pdf "Concluding note Einsteins paper in 1918 was apparently written on advise from friends to respond to the critics of special relativity, in manner that was appropriate for a scientist defending his theory. The very fact that Einstein used the gravitational time dilation predicted by the theory of general relativity, invented ten years after the formulation of special relativity, to justify the asymmetrical time dilation of transported clocks provides some support to the genuineness of the alleged reality of the paradox within special relativity." The rate at which an atomic clock 'ticks' is based upon the aether pressure in which it exists. In terms of motion, the speed of a GPS satellite with respect to the aether causes it to displace more aether and for that aether to exert more pressure on the clock in the GPS satellite than the aether pressure associated with a clock at rest with respect to the Earth. This causes the GPS satellite clock to "result in a delay of about 7 ìs/day". The aether pressure associated with the aether displaced by the Earth exerts less pressure on the GPS satellite than a similar clock at rest on the Earth" causing the GPS clocks to appear faster by about 45 ìs/day". The aether pressure associated with the speed at which the GPS satellite moves with respect to the aether and the aether pressure associated with the aether displaced by the Earth causes "clocks on the GPS satellites [to] tick approximately 38 ìs/day faster than clocks on the ground." (quoted text from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_relativity_on_GPS). There is a different amount of aether pressure on the brother in the space ship circling the Earth than there is on the brother on the Earth and this aether pressure is affecting the molecules and atoms which each brother consists of. There are so many other factors which play a much greater part in the aging of the brothers. Radiation, lack of gravity, how the food they eat is digested, and other factors contribute to the aging of the brothers much more than the rate at which their associated atomic clocks tick. What those who do not understand time is a concept then suggest is to make everything completely equal between the two brothers. If everything is made completely equal then the associated atomic clocks tick at the same rate. If the brothers are in a state where their associated atomic clocks 'tick' at different rates then there is much more going on in their respective environments which are affecting the rate at which they age then the rate at which their associated clocks 'tick'. To suggest the brothers age at the rate at which their associated atomic clock 'tick' is silly. |