A GRAND ILLUSION OF TIME
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From: Peter Riedt on 16 Jun 2010 04:04 A GRAND ILLUSION OF TIME Time is a human concept; it requires an intelligent memory (such as the human brain) to have relevance. Time and the notions of past, present and future were invented by man to order events into a sequence by identifying them as having occurred before, during or after other events. Present or current time is a human sensation caused by observing material objects not affected by change or perceiving a sequence of macro events through human sensory facilities as still happening or anticipating them when in fact they are already physically completed or have not yet started. A unit of time is an arbitrary time interval established for practical human purposes and derived from and based on a repeatable cyclical physical process. Duration is a period of time starting and ending with specific events identifiable by man and separated by his units of time. All time concepts are used by man to understand, describe and predict the causes and effects of natural processes. While time is essential to man, it does not exist in the universe or in nature as an absolute or relative entity or anything at all. Nature is concerned only with the state of the world, as it exists at a given moment. It does not know of the past or the future. The physical state of the universe and the extent and direction of the forces in it at each moment is the cause of its state at the next moment and each past or future moment is not planned, predicted, measured or remembered by nature. Time, whichever way defined by man, is not required for nature to function or progress. Peter Riedt
From: Inertial on 16 Jun 2010 09:16 "Peter Riedt" <riedt1(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:8f6ca4e7-175f-4d85-bfe1-696d9695bf70(a)a39g2000prb.googlegroups.com... > A GRAND ILLUSION OF TIME > Time is a human concept; Nope. No more than length or mass is. > it requires an intelligent memory (such as > the human brain) to have relevance. Nope. No more than length or mass does. > Time and the notions of past, > present and future were invented by man to order events into a > sequence by identifying them as having occurred before, during or > after other events. Nope .. they were discovered.. the ordering already exists in nature. Cause and effect. However, the notion of time 'flowing' is a 'human' interpretation. > Present or current time is a human sensation > caused by observing material objects not affected by change or > perceiving a sequence of macro events through human sensory facilities > as still happening or anticipating them when in fact they are already > physically completed or have not yet started. A unit of time is an > arbitrary time interval established for practical human purposes and > derived from and based on a repeatable cyclical physical process. > Duration is a period of time starting and ending with specific events > identifiable by man and separated by his units of time. All time > concepts are used by man to understand, describe and predict the > causes and effects of natural processes. > > While time is essential to man, it does not exist in the universe or > in nature as an absolute or relative entity or anything at all. Nature > is concerned only with the state of the world, as it exists at a given > moment. Nope .. think that happened in the past affects the now, and the now affect the future. > It does not know of the past or the future. It doesn't "know" anything .. it isn't sentient > The physical state > of the universe and the extent and direction of the forces in it at > each moment is the cause of its state at the next moment There you go .. one moment affects the next. Thanks for disproving yourself > and each past > or future moment is not planned, predicted, measured or remembered by > nature. Why would it need to be? > Time, whichever way defined by man, is not required for nature > to function or progress. You just contradicted yourself
From: Thomas Heger on 17 Jun 2010 01:30 Peter Riedt schrieb: > A GRAND ILLUSION OF TIME > Time is a human concept; it requires an intelligent memory (such as > the human brain) to have relevance. Time and the notions of past, > present and future were invented by man to order events into a > sequence by identifying them as having occurred before, during or > after other events. Present or current time is a human sensation > caused by observing material objects not affected by change or > perceiving a sequence of macro events through human sensory facilities > as still happening or anticipating them when in fact they are already > physically completed or have not yet started. A unit of time is an > arbitrary time interval established for practical human purposes and > derived from and based on a repeatable cyclical physical process. > Duration is a period of time starting and ending with specific events > identifiable by man and separated by his units of time. All time > concepts are used by man to understand, describe and predict the > causes and effects of natural processes. > > While time is essential to man, it does not exist in the universe or > in nature as an absolute or relative entity or anything at all. Nature > is concerned only with the state of the world, as it exists at a given > moment. It does not know of the past or the future. The physical state > of the universe and the extent and direction of the forces in it at > each moment is the cause of its state at the next moment and each past > or future moment is not planned, predicted, measured or remembered by > nature. Time, whichever way defined by man, is not required for nature > to function or progress. > Actually I agree for the greater part. But we have clocks and they do something. The question is, what that is, that is behind the behavior of clocks. And we have relativity, that connects time to space, hence makes the term space a human artifact, too. As physics is a natural science, it has to understand nature. To demand predictions of a good theory is like demanding to tell tomorrows news. We can't and physicists can't neither, we only hope, that our models are so sophisticated, that they behave almost like the world itself. But our models are not sophisticated. One reason is, that we have too many of them, but nature works most certainly simple and advances strictly into the future, from every single point. To know the state of every point is certainly impossible. So we can't predict the future. But we could enhance our models. So what do clocks do? Actually they count something, that occurs repeatedly. We only assume, that the rhythm of these events do not change. But relativity says, that tickrates are altered upon acceleration. But not only the clocks change, but space and its content, too. This is kind of hard to swallow and so there are endless discussions about the impossibility of such effects. But science is not about what someone likes or if nature behaves according to believes. Things are as they are and the aim of physics is to understand the mechanisms that make things happen, but not to predict them. This is the job of a fortune teller. TH
From: Peter Riedt on 17 Jun 2010 22:14 On Jun 17, 1:30 pm, Thomas Heger <ttt_...(a)web.de> wrote: > PeterRiedtschrieb: > > > > > A GRAND ILLUSION OF TIME > > Time is a human concept; it requires an intelligent memory (such as > > the human brain) to have relevance. Time and the notions of past, > > present and future were invented by man to order events into a > > sequence by identifying them as having occurred before, during or > > after other events. Present or current time is a human sensation > > caused by observing material objects not affected by change or > > perceiving a sequence of macro events through human sensory facilities > > as still happening or anticipating them when in fact they are already > > physically completed or have not yet started. A unit of time is an > > arbitrary time interval established for practical human purposes and > > derived from and based on a repeatable cyclical physical process. > > Duration is a period of time starting and ending with specific events > > identifiable by man and separated by his units of time. All time > > concepts are used by man to understand, describe and predict the > > causes and effects of natural processes. > > > While time is essential to man, it does not exist in the universe or > > in nature as an absolute or relative entity or anything at all. Nature > > is concerned only with the state of the world, as it exists at a given > > moment. It does not know of the past or the future. The physical state > > of the universe and the extent and direction of the forces in it at > > each moment is the cause of its state at the next moment and each past > > or future moment is not planned, predicted, measured or remembered by > > nature. Time, whichever way defined by man, is not required for nature > > to function or progress. > > Actually I agree for the greater part. > But we have clocks and they do something. The question is, what that is, > that is behind the behavior of clocks. And we have relativity, that > connects time to space, hence makes the term space a human artifact, too. > As physics is a natural science, it has to understand nature. To demand > predictions of a good theory is like demanding to tell tomorrows news. > We can't and physicists can't neither, we only hope, that our models are > so sophisticated, that they behave almost like the world itself. > But our models are not sophisticated. One reason is, that we have too > many of them, but nature works most certainly simple and advances > strictly into the future, from every single point. To know the state of > every point is certainly impossible. So we can't predict the future. But > we could enhance our models. > So what do clocks do? Actually they count something, that occurs > repeatedly. We only assume, that the rhythm of these events do not > change. But relativity says, that tickrates are altered upon > acceleration. But not only the clocks change, but space and its content, > too. This is kind of hard to swallow and so there are endless > discussions about the impossibility of such effects. But science is not > about what someone likes or if nature behaves according to believes. > Things are as they are and the aim of physics is to understand the > mechanisms that make things happen, but not to predict them. This is the > job of a fortune teller. > > TH- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Thomas, clocks divide a period of 24 hours into 3600 minutes or 86400 seconds or smaller divisions using a mechanical process such as a pendulum swing that is governed by the law of inertia. They do as you say count something that occurs repeatedly but there is no timekeeping by nature including forces or laws that vary the rate of time. The progress of 'time' is isotropic, the speed of light is not. Peter Riedt
From: Inertial on 17 Jun 2010 22:21
"Peter Riedt" <riedt1(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:0de2b3fb-3aaf-4657-a286-0ac9a3dd7329(a)e34g2000pra.googlegroups.com... > On Jun 17, 1:30 pm, Thomas Heger <ttt_...(a)web.de> wrote: >> PeterRiedtschrieb: >> >> >> >> > A GRAND ILLUSION OF TIME >> > Time is a human concept; it requires an intelligent memory (such as >> > the human brain) to have relevance. Time and the notions of past, >> > present and future were invented by man to order events into a >> > sequence by identifying them as having occurred before, during or >> > after other events. Present or current time is a human sensation >> > caused by observing material objects not affected by change or >> > perceiving a sequence of macro events through human sensory facilities >> > as still happening or anticipating them when in fact they are already >> > physically completed or have not yet started. A unit of time is an >> > arbitrary time interval established for practical human purposes and >> > derived from and based on a repeatable cyclical physical process. >> > Duration is a period of time starting and ending with specific events >> > identifiable by man and separated by his units of time. All time >> > concepts are used by man to understand, describe and predict the >> > causes and effects of natural processes. >> >> > While time is essential to man, it does not exist in the universe or >> > in nature as an absolute or relative entity or anything at all. Nature >> > is concerned only with the state of the world, as it exists at a given >> > moment. It does not know of the past or the future. The physical state >> > of the universe and the extent and direction of the forces in it at >> > each moment is the cause of its state at the next moment and each past >> > or future moment is not planned, predicted, measured or remembered by >> > nature. Time, whichever way defined by man, is not required for nature >> > to function or progress. >> >> Actually I agree for the greater part. >> But we have clocks and they do something. The question is, what that is, >> that is behind the behavior of clocks. And we have relativity, that >> connects time to space, hence makes the term space a human artifact, too. >> As physics is a natural science, it has to understand nature. To demand >> predictions of a good theory is like demanding to tell tomorrows news. >> We can't and physicists can't neither, we only hope, that our models are >> so sophisticated, that they behave almost like the world itself. >> But our models are not sophisticated. One reason is, that we have too >> many of them, but nature works most certainly simple and advances >> strictly into the future, from every single point. To know the state of >> every point is certainly impossible. So we can't predict the future. But >> we could enhance our models. >> So what do clocks do? Actually they count something, that occurs >> repeatedly. We only assume, that the rhythm of these events do not >> change. But relativity says, that tickrates are altered upon >> acceleration. But not only the clocks change, but space and its content, >> too. This is kind of hard to swallow and so there are endless >> discussions about the impossibility of such effects. But science is not >> about what someone likes or if nature behaves according to believes. >> Things are as they are and the aim of physics is to understand the >> mechanisms that make things happen, but not to predict them. This is the >> job of a fortune teller. >> >> TH- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > Thomas, clocks divide a period of 24 hours into 3600 minutes or 86400 > seconds or > smaller divisions using a mechanical process such as a pendulum swing > that is governed > by the law of inertia. Some clocks .. lots of differnent ways to make a clock work > They do as you say count something that occurs > repeatedly but there is > no timekeeping by nature including forces or laws that vary the rate > of time. How do you know? > The progress > of 'time' is isotropic, That makes no sense > the speed of light is not. But experiment shows that it is. You're in denial and making grand assertions with no basis to support your position |