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From: Peter Webb on 18 Feb 2010 19:45

"mpc755" <mpc755(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b232b4d3-422f-4f00-b485-d7a6f6ab5cd7(a)c22g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 18, 2:30 am, "Peter Webb"
<webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote:
> "mpc755" <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:8e724cb5-1db0-47c2-aa3d-5ed7150295ea(a)f15g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 18, 12:40 am, "Peter Webb"
>
>
>
> <webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote:
> > "mpc755" <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:c7b417f4-cdc4-414a-a24c-3f2e7fc4c67d(a)t42g2000vbt.googlegroups.com...
> > On Feb 16, 11:55 pm, "Peter Webb"
>
> > <webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote:
> > > "mpc755" <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> > >news:3c8112b0-e86e-4fdb-a9f6-6c390200aa01(a)b2g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
> > > On Feb 16, 9:26 pm, "Peter Webb"
>
> > > <webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote:
> > > > > > __________________________________
> > > > > > My tabletop is not in a spaceship, and there is no train on the
> > > > > > spaceship.
>
> > > > > > Here is my question. Lets just take the first half this time:
>
> > > > > > 1. We place two atomic clocks on a tabletop at the centre of a 1
> > > > > > metre
> > > > > > ruler. We separate them very slowly so they are at either end of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > one
> > > > > > metre ruler. We record the time taken (according to the clocks)
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > light
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > travel 1 metre in a vacuum. Will the speed of light measured in
> > > > > > this
> > > > > > manner
> > > > > > be c or some other value?
>
> > > > > Is the aether at rest with respect to the table top?
>
> > > > > _________________________________
> > > > > No. The tabletop is moving at speed of v relative to the ether.
>
> > > > The the tabletop is the train.
>
> > > > __________________________________
> > > > No, a tabletop is a tabletop. Its not a train. And you haven't
> > > > answered
> > > > my
> > > > question. Will the speed of light measured in this manner be c or
> > > > some
> > > > other
> > > > value? It is a pretty simple question. Why won't you answer it?
>
> > > I have answered it several times. If you want to understand how the
> > > clocks on the tabletop behave read my posts and replaced 'train' with
> > > 'tabletop'.
>
> > > _______________________________________
> > > Or, you could simply answer my question. Its pretty simple. Will the
> > > speed
> > > be measured as c, or some different value.
>
> > > I will make it easy for you:
>
> > > If the earth is moving at velocity v with respect to the ether, and we
> > > perform the very simple experiment above, then will the measured speed
> > > of
> > > light in a vacuum be measured as c in a laboratory on earth?
>
> > > Well?
>
> > Replace 'earth' with 'train' and read my responses if you want to know
> > the answer.
>
> > ____________________________
> > So you refuse to answer (again). Shows how much confidence you have in
> > your
> > own theories.
>
> I have a great deal of confidence in my theory but why am I going to
> waste my time having to go back through my posts and replace 'train'
> with 'tabletop', or replace 'train' with 'Earth'?
>
> __________________________________
> Nobody is asking you to. I am asking you a very simple question about your
> theory. Say the earth is moving at speed v relative to the ether. The
> speed
> of light in the direction the earth is travelling is measured in a
> laboratory on earth. What is its measured speed?
>
> If you think the clocks being moved on a moving tabletop or the clocks
> being moved on the flat bed cars of a moving train makes a difference
> then this 'conversation' is pointless.
>
> _________________________________
> There are in fact 4 possibilities:
>
> a) c
> b) c+v
> c) c-v
> d) something else.
>
> You could just answer 'a', 'b', 'c' or 'd'. That is only typing a single
> character; that's not too much work for you, is it?

If you want to understand how the Observers on an object moving at 'v'
with respect to the aether determine the speed of light based upon
'synchronized' clocks, read my posts discussing the simultaneity of
lightning strikes as determined by Observers on a train.

________________________________
Why won't you naswer the question?


Simply answering the question above is not going to get us anywhere.


___________________________
Of course it will. You will be making a verificable claim about your theory,
so we can verify if it is correct.


You have to understand what is physically occurring in nature to the
atomic clocks and the light with respect to the aether in order to
understand how it is the Observers on the train 'measure' the speed of
light.

__________________________________
Earth moving at v relative to the ether. We measure the speed of light on
earth in the direction we are travelling through the ether. What speed do we
measure on earth for light?

Simple question. Why won't you answer?


From: Peter Webb on 18 Feb 2010 19:59

>> If you are having trouble understanding the concepts of different
>> dimensions, read Flatland by Edwin Abbott. You will be relieved to hear
>> that
>> it contains almost no mathematics in the sense you probably understand
>> it,
>> but a great deal in a sense you don't.
>
> I laugh that you take your inspirations and arguments from a novel, a
> pure work of fiction.

Obviously I can't recommend a book on tensors or complex manifolds. I have
to "dumb-down" the resources I recommend based on the knowledge of the
person trying to learn.

Just about everybody in this thread is doing the same thing, dumbing it down
to try and help you understand. Of course physicists don't talk to other
physicists in the way they have been talking to you; they have pitched their
answers at a level they assume that somebody with no knowledge of physics or
maths could understand. Physics baby language.

In your case, if you don't understand the concepts of different dimensions -
as you say - then Flatland is an excellent choice.

You could follow that up with Einstein's own explanation of Relativity for
the layman, still very readable.

If there is anything in either of these books you don't understand or agree
with, I am sure lots of people (including myself) would be happy to help.

So, time for you to learn some physics!


From: mpc755 on 18 Feb 2010 20:29
On Feb 18, 7:40 pm, "Peter Webb"
<webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote:
> "mpc755" <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:5183f2b9-c790-40f3-a5eb-b86a72816f2f(a)y17g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 18, 2:30 am, "Peter Webb"
>
>
>
> <webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote:
> > "mpc755" <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:8e724cb5-1db0-47c2-aa3d-5ed7150295ea(a)f15g2000yqe.googlegroups.com....
> > On Feb 18, 12:40 am, "Peter Webb"
>
> > <webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote:
> > > "mpc755" <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> > >news:c7b417f4-cdc4-414a-a24c-3f2e7fc4c67d(a)t42g2000vbt.googlegroups.com....
> > > On Feb 16, 11:55 pm, "Peter Webb"
>
> > > <webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote:
> > > > "mpc755" <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> > > >news:3c8112b0-e86e-4fdb-a9f6-6c390200aa01(a)b2g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
> > > > On Feb 16, 9:26 pm, "Peter Webb"
>
> > > > <webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote:
> > > > > > > __________________________________
> > > > > > > My tabletop is not in a spaceship, and there is no train on the
> > > > > > > spaceship.
>
> > > > > > > Here is my question. Lets just take the first half this time:
>
> > > > > > > 1. We place two atomic clocks on a tabletop at the centre of a 1
> > > > > > > metre
> > > > > > > ruler. We separate them very slowly so they are at either end of
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > one
> > > > > > > metre ruler. We record the time taken (according to the clocks)
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > light
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > travel 1 metre in a vacuum. Will the speed of light measured in
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > manner
> > > > > > > be c or some other value?
>
> > > > > > Is the aether at rest with respect to the table top?
>
> > > > > > _________________________________
> > > > > > No. The tabletop is moving at speed of v relative to the ether.
>
> > > > > The the tabletop is the train.
>
> > > > > __________________________________
> > > > > No, a tabletop is a tabletop. Its not a train. And you haven't
> > > > > answered
> > > > > my
> > > > > question. Will the speed of light measured in this manner be c or
> > > > > some
> > > > > other
> > > > > value? It is a pretty simple question. Why won't you answer it?
>
> > > > I have answered it several times. If you want to understand how the
> > > > clocks on the tabletop behave read my posts and replaced 'train' with
> > > > 'tabletop'.
>
> > > > _______________________________________
> > > > Or, you could simply answer my question. Its pretty simple. Will the
> > > > speed
> > > > be measured as c, or some different value.
>
> > > > I will make it easy for you:
>
> > > > If the earth is moving at velocity v with respect to the ether, and we
> > > > perform the very simple experiment above, then will the measured speed
> > > > of
> > > > light in a vacuum be measured as c in a laboratory on earth?
>
> > > > Well?
>
> > > Replace 'earth' with 'train' and read my responses if you want to know
> > > the answer.
>
> > > ____________________________
> > > So you refuse to answer (again). Shows how much confidence you have in
> > > your
> > > own theories.
>
> > I have a great deal of confidence in my theory but why am I going to
> > waste my time having to go back through my posts and replace 'train'
> > with 'tabletop', or replace 'train' with 'Earth'?
>
> > __________________________________
> > Nobody is asking you to. I am asking you a very simple question about your
> > theory. Say the earth is moving at speed v relative to the ether. The
> > speed
> > of light in the direction the earth is travelling is measured in a
> > laboratory on earth. What is its measured speed?
>
> > If you think the clocks being moved on a moving tabletop or the clocks
> > being moved on the flat bed cars of a moving train makes a difference
> > then this 'conversation' is pointless.
>
> > _________________________________
> > There are in fact 4 possibilities:
>
> > a) c
> > b) c+v
> > c) c-v
> > d) something else.
>
> > You could just answer 'a', 'b', 'c' or 'd'. That is only typing a single
> > character; that's not too much work for you, is it?
>
> d) Something else. In order to understand the something else read my
> posts discussing the simultaneity of lightning strikes as determined
> by Observers on the train and on the embankment.
>
> _______________________________
> If the earth is travelling at v relative to the ether, and we measure the
> speed of light of earth in the direction we are travelling, what value do we
> get? Its some equation linking c and v, right? What is it?

You will find the answer to your question if you read my posts where I
discuss a train moving at 'v' with respect to the aether.
From: mpc755 on 18 Feb 2010 20:29
On Feb 18, 7:45 pm, "Peter Webb"
<webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote:
> "mpc755" <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:b232b4d3-422f-4f00-b485-d7a6f6ab5cd7(a)c22g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 18, 2:30 am, "Peter Webb"
>
>
>
> <webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote:
> > "mpc755" <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:8e724cb5-1db0-47c2-aa3d-5ed7150295ea(a)f15g2000yqe.googlegroups.com....
> > On Feb 18, 12:40 am, "Peter Webb"
>
> > <webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote:
> > > "mpc755" <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> > >news:c7b417f4-cdc4-414a-a24c-3f2e7fc4c67d(a)t42g2000vbt.googlegroups.com....
> > > On Feb 16, 11:55 pm, "Peter Webb"
>
> > > <webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote:
> > > > "mpc755" <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> > > >news:3c8112b0-e86e-4fdb-a9f6-6c390200aa01(a)b2g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
> > > > On Feb 16, 9:26 pm, "Peter Webb"
>
> > > > <webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote:
> > > > > > > __________________________________
> > > > > > > My tabletop is not in a spaceship, and there is no train on the
> > > > > > > spaceship.
>
> > > > > > > Here is my question. Lets just take the first half this time:
>
> > > > > > > 1. We place two atomic clocks on a tabletop at the centre of a 1
> > > > > > > metre
> > > > > > > ruler. We separate them very slowly so they are at either end of
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > one
> > > > > > > metre ruler. We record the time taken (according to the clocks)
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > light
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > travel 1 metre in a vacuum. Will the speed of light measured in
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > manner
> > > > > > > be c or some other value?
>
> > > > > > Is the aether at rest with respect to the table top?
>
> > > > > > _________________________________
> > > > > > No. The tabletop is moving at speed of v relative to the ether.
>
> > > > > The the tabletop is the train.
>
> > > > > __________________________________
> > > > > No, a tabletop is a tabletop. Its not a train. And you haven't
> > > > > answered
> > > > > my
> > > > > question. Will the speed of light measured in this manner be c or
> > > > > some
> > > > > other
> > > > > value? It is a pretty simple question. Why won't you answer it?
>
> > > > I have answered it several times. If you want to understand how the
> > > > clocks on the tabletop behave read my posts and replaced 'train' with
> > > > 'tabletop'.
>
> > > > _______________________________________
> > > > Or, you could simply answer my question. Its pretty simple. Will the
> > > > speed
> > > > be measured as c, or some different value.
>
> > > > I will make it easy for you:
>
> > > > If the earth is moving at velocity v with respect to the ether, and we
> > > > perform the very simple experiment above, then will the measured speed
> > > > of
> > > > light in a vacuum be measured as c in a laboratory on earth?
>
> > > > Well?
>
> > > Replace 'earth' with 'train' and read my responses if you want to know
> > > the answer.
>
> > > ____________________________
> > > So you refuse to answer (again). Shows how much confidence you have in
> > > your
> > > own theories.
>
> > I have a great deal of confidence in my theory but why am I going to
> > waste my time having to go back through my posts and replace 'train'
> > with 'tabletop', or replace 'train' with 'Earth'?
>
> > __________________________________
> > Nobody is asking you to. I am asking you a very simple question about your
> > theory. Say the earth is moving at speed v relative to the ether. The
> > speed
> > of light in the direction the earth is travelling is measured in a
> > laboratory on earth. What is its measured speed?
>
> > If you think the clocks being moved on a moving tabletop or the clocks
> > being moved on the flat bed cars of a moving train makes a difference
> > then this 'conversation' is pointless.
>
> > _________________________________
> > There are in fact 4 possibilities:
>
> > a) c
> > b) c+v
> > c) c-v
> > d) something else.
>
> > You could just answer 'a', 'b', 'c' or 'd'. That is only typing a single
> > character; that's not too much work for you, is it?
>
> If you want to understand how the Observers on an object moving at 'v'
> with respect to the aether determine the speed of light based upon
> 'synchronized' clocks, read my posts discussing the simultaneity of
> lightning strikes as determined by Observers on a train.
>
> ________________________________
> Why won't you naswer the question?
>

I have answered your question. Why won't you read the answer?


> Simply answering the question above is not going to get us anywhere.
>
> ___________________________
> Of course it will. You will be making a verificable claim about your theory,
> so we can verify if it is correct.
>
> You have to understand what is physically occurring in nature to the
> atomic clocks and the light with respect to the aether in order to
> understand how it is the Observers on the train 'measure' the speed of
> light.
>
> __________________________________
> Earth moving at v relative to the ether. We measure the speed of light on
> earth in the direction we are travelling through the ether. What speed do we
> measure on earth for light?
>
> Simple question. Why won't you answer?

I have answered your question. Why won't you read the answer?
From: mpalenik on 18 Feb 2010 20:53
On Feb 18, 4:12 pm, Ste <ste_ro...(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 18 Feb, 16:35, mpalenik <markpale...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 18, 9:43 am, Ste <ste_ro...(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I'm confused Mark.
>
> > > My position is that someone must hold a priori that alternate
> > > dimensions are a real possibility, in order to hold that any theory
> > > that employs alternate dimensions is credible. Some here do hold that
> > > alternate dimensions are a real possibility, so of course they hold
> > > theories that employ them as credible.
>
> > > I don't hold that alternate dimensions are a real possibility, so of
> > > course I don't accept that theories that employ them are credible.
>
> > The problem is, you act like everybody in this group went into physics
> > classes knowing and believing everything that was taught in the
> > physics classes.
>
> No, I'm basically saying that the only people who came *out* of those
> classes, and went into theoretical or experimental physics, are the
> people who by the end believed any of that nonsense.


So, you don't think educated people could possibly understand
something you don't. Interesting.
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