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From: Chris Ridd on 22 May 2010 10:52
On 2010-05-22 15:47:13 +0100, Jaimie Vandenbergh said:

> On Sat, 22 May 2010 15:34:18 +0100, Chris Ridd <chrisridd(a)mac.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2010-05-22 14:52:16 +0100, Jaimie Vandenbergh said:
>>
>>> It's the last bit that throws me - choosing Java and .NET as managed
>>> environments strikes me as the wrong choice of examples. But
>>> otherwise, sure - building managed environments is one of several
>>> things that Apple does pretty well. I don't see any problem with that,
>>> though the lunatic fringe of the OSS movement certainly would.
>>
>> I can't see Apple needing to do that. They've managed switching from
>> 68000 to PowerPC to Intel relatively painlessly, and wouldn't see any
>> benefit from having any kind of architecture-neutral virtual machine.
>>
>> What other examples of managed environments are you thinking of?
>
> I may have misused a term of art that I didn't know? By "managed
> environment" I was thinking the walled-garden iPhoneOS ecosystem and
> the Mac hardware+software approach. Which has flaws (for those who
> don't like the restrictions that are imposed), but also great benefits
> (for everyone who gets nicely working software).

In the Windows world, "managed code" is specifically stuff that runs in
..Net, ie a VM. I assumed that's what the article's author was talking
about, but you're right and there's much more that Apple can put into
the compiler to "manage" actual code. I should look into LLVM more!

--
Chris

From: Jaimie Vandenbergh on 22 May 2010 11:52
On Sat, 22 May 2010 15:52:02 +0100, Chris Ridd <chrisridd(a)mac.com>
wrote:

>On 2010-05-22 15:47:13 +0100, Jaimie Vandenbergh said:
>
>> On Sat, 22 May 2010 15:34:18 +0100, Chris Ridd <chrisridd(a)mac.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2010-05-22 14:52:16 +0100, Jaimie Vandenbergh said:
>>>
>>>> It's the last bit that throws me - choosing Java and .NET as managed
>>>> environments strikes me as the wrong choice of examples. But
>>>> otherwise, sure - building managed environments is one of several
>>>> things that Apple does pretty well. I don't see any problem with that,
>>>> though the lunatic fringe of the OSS movement certainly would.
>>>
>>> I can't see Apple needing to do that. They've managed switching from
>>> 68000 to PowerPC to Intel relatively painlessly, and wouldn't see any
>>> benefit from having any kind of architecture-neutral virtual machine.
>>>
>>> What other examples of managed environments are you thinking of?
>>
>> I may have misused a term of art that I didn't know? By "managed
>> environment" I was thinking the walled-garden iPhoneOS ecosystem and
>> the Mac hardware+software approach. Which has flaws (for those who
>> don't like the restrictions that are imposed), but also great benefits
>> (for everyone who gets nicely working software).
>
>In the Windows world, "managed code" is specifically stuff that runs in
>.Net, ie a VM.

Ah! I've only ever known those as VMs or sandboxes.

>I assumed that's what the article's author was talking
>about, but you're right and there's much more that Apple can put into
>the compiler to "manage" actual code. I should look into LLVM more!

From what I've seen of other folks looking at it (I don't program but
I remember a lot of the theory!) it's good stuff.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
"If we do not change the direction we are going, we are likely to
end up where we are headed." - anon
From: Woody on 22 May 2010 11:53
Tim Hodgson <thnews(a)poboxmolar.com.invalid> wrote:

> Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie(a)sometimes.sessile.org> wrote:
>
> >
> > Welcome to Think Different land. 80% of the time it's right, 20% it's
> > aggravating. But it makes for better kit overall, I'm convinced.
>
> Linked from Daring Fireball:
>
> <http://blog.bigzaphod.org/2010/05/21/birth-of-a-platform/>
>
> "They've been slowly training us developers to stick with the documented
> stuff and use their higher level APIs. They want us to accept their
> abstractions and work within them. This is usually rationalized under
> the guise of safety, compatibility, and quality control. Those are fine
> and acceptable reasons by themselves, but what if there's another
> purpose lurking behind the curtain?
> I think there's a chance that Apple is slowly building Objective-C into
> a managed environment similar to Java/.NET."

I don't see how it necessarily follows that you go from one to the
other. Every manufacturer in every age has stressed sticking with higher
level APIs and documented stuff. It is easier when you change
architecture or operating systems functions. Apple know this more than
most as they have done it more often.

But if that is what they are doing I wouldn't have an issue with it.

--
Woody

www.alienrat.com
From: SteveH on 22 May 2010 14:29
Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie(a)sometimes.sessile.org> wrote:

> >I think SteveH said you can? Perhaps he means a jailbroken one? Not sure
> >. . .
>
> Wishful thinking on your part I'm afraid. SteveH suggested it was easy
> to transfer photos to an iPhone - but that would be by the official
> route with iTunes and a cable. Once it's set up, it's all automatic
> and lovely. But wirelessly/bluetoothily? Not so much!

Sorry - a misunderstanding. The poster had been complaining about it
being difficult with a Nokia. It's not - they're browsable via BT.
--
SteveH
From: Jaimie Vandenbergh on 22 May 2010 16:01
On Sat, 22 May 2010 19:29:11 +0100, italiancar(a)gmail.com (SteveH)
wrote:

>Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie(a)sometimes.sessile.org> wrote:
>
>> >I think SteveH said you can? Perhaps he means a jailbroken one? Not sure
>> >. . .
>>
>> Wishful thinking on your part I'm afraid. SteveH suggested it was easy
>> to transfer photos to an iPhone - but that would be by the official
>> route with iTunes and a cable. Once it's set up, it's all automatic
>> and lovely. But wirelessly/bluetoothily? Not so much!
>
>Sorry - a misunderstanding. The poster had been complaining about it
>being difficult with a Nokia. It's not - they're browsable via BT.

Yes, that's easy. And in fact I wrote up a complete howto for that
before noticing that Rob was talking about his iPhone.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity.
-- Dorothy Parker
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