Bounced messages- where are they going?!
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From: R.W. on 7 May 2010 13:51 John, I completely and 100% agree with you. The problem is not with Eudora. It's the ISP or the webhost. Period. I'm in over my head here and think I'm just going to have to surrender. It's been weeks and I'm still no closer to an answer (or fix!) than when I started. But thanks anyway for your insight. "John H Meyers" <jhmeyers(a)nomail.invalid> wrote in message news:4BE431C7.30903(a)nomail.invalid... > On 5/5/2010 5:49 PM, R.W. wrote: > >> I have two personalities in Eudora. One fetches mail from my ISP and the >> other fetches mail from my webhost. The Email Address I use for BOTH >> Eudora >> personalities is myname(a)mycompany.com. Eudora flawlessly and reliably >> fetches mail from BOTH locations with one exception. Bounces. But only >> bounces that start out from Eudora. > > Not quite a perfect analysis -- Eudora fetches all mail that was > _delivered to a specific account on a specific POP server_ > > Ergo, the mail you are looking for was not delivered > to the specific account on the specific POP server > where you are telling Eudora to look. > > You sent mail from two completely different systems, > only an invalid "To:" address in common (though you say also "From:" > address), > and you don't know why one of these did not get a Delivery Status > Notification > sent back -- well, are you sure that you are checking the right POP server > for it > (and that no server-side action is filtering it, etc.)? > > This is not easy to determine, but it certainly isn't Eudora's fault. > >> If I log onto my webhost's webmail and send a message to an invalid >> address, >> it bounces back to my webmail inbox instantly, just like it should. > > With what error code and message, reported by what server? > > There's a great deal of detail in a complete Delivery Status Notification, > and simply saying "it bounced" does not convey any of it. > >> If, however, I send a message to that same invalid address from Eudora, >> the >> message never bounces. Well, it probably actually DOES bounce, but so far >> my >> webhost techs can't tell me where that bounced message goes. > > If any DSN is going to be returned at all, > the rules would be found in http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5321 > Search for "reverse-path" and "return-path" > > However, your "webmail" is not routed through the same path as mail sent > via Eudora, > and you don't know as much about how it is sent. > > Some of our servers (or those we use to route mail to us), for example, > will "blackhole" mail coming from certain places, with no response at all, > particularly if they believe they are receiving certain kinds of "attack" > (e.g. "Directory Harvest Attack" -- trying to send to random addresses, > to see whether some of the addresses may happen to be be accepted as > valid). > > Messages thought to be spam may also be blackholed, > and scoring of "spam" may depend in part upon exactly where it came from > (could be different results from different relaying servers, > could even be different sorts of errors caused by each). > > Why don't you try sending the same messages using Outlook Express > (or any other client you happen to have, other than Eudora), > via the exact same SMTP server and all other settings (and headers). > > --
From: R.W. on 7 May 2010 13:54 That's the rub! I can't get my hands on a bounced message because neither my ISP nor my webhost can even tell me where they're going! Grrrrrrrr. Thanks for your input. "Christian" <christian100221(a)chance-for-children.org> wrote in message news:1ji42gf.1scz6mpjfmafeN%christian100221(a)chance-for-children.org... > R.W. <ranger52oc(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > >> Please take a look at my reply to Dennis's message above. Bounced >> messages >> just seem to disappear. Neither my webhost nor ISP can account for them >> and >> without actually seeing one, we have no way to follow the trail. > > I wrote that you should look at a _correctly addressed_ and delivered > message sent via your ISP's SMTP server and analyse it's full headers. > There might be an indication to what place the faulty message bounces. > > Of course, you can't analyse headers of a message which you don't have > access to... > > Christian > > -- > Christian F. Buser, Hohle Gasse 6, CH-5507 Mellingen (Switzerland) > Hilfe fuer Strassenkinder in Ghana: http://www.chance-for-children.org
From: R.W. on 7 May 2010 16:15 John, That was a great idea! I created an account in Outlook Express, sent a message to a bogus Yahoo address, and it immediately bounced back and landed in my webhosts email inbox. And true to form, Eudora dutifully fetched it. Perfect! So does this shed any light on the issue? Is the finger of blame pointing at my ISP and not my webhost?? Thanks again! "John H Meyers" <jhmeyers(a)nomail.invalid> wrote in message news:4BE431C7.30903(a)nomail.invalid... > On 5/5/2010 5:49 PM, R.W. wrote: > >> I have two personalities in Eudora. One fetches mail from my ISP and the >> other fetches mail from my webhost. The Email Address I use for BOTH >> Eudora >> personalities is myname(a)mycompany.com. Eudora flawlessly and reliably >> fetches mail from BOTH locations with one exception. Bounces. But only >> bounces that start out from Eudora. > > Not quite a perfect analysis -- Eudora fetches all mail that was > _delivered to a specific account on a specific POP server_ > > Ergo, the mail you are looking for was not delivered > to the specific account on the specific POP server > where you are telling Eudora to look. > > You sent mail from two completely different systems, > only an invalid "To:" address in common (though you say also "From:" > address), > and you don't know why one of these did not get a Delivery Status > Notification > sent back -- well, are you sure that you are checking the right POP server > for it > (and that no server-side action is filtering it, etc.)? > > This is not easy to determine, but it certainly isn't Eudora's fault. > >> If I log onto my webhost's webmail and send a message to an invalid >> address, >> it bounces back to my webmail inbox instantly, just like it should. > > With what error code and message, reported by what server? > > There's a great deal of detail in a complete Delivery Status Notification, > and simply saying "it bounced" does not convey any of it. > >> If, however, I send a message to that same invalid address from Eudora, >> the >> message never bounces. Well, it probably actually DOES bounce, but so far >> my >> webhost techs can't tell me where that bounced message goes. > > If any DSN is going to be returned at all, > the rules would be found in http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5321 > Search for "reverse-path" and "return-path" > > However, your "webmail" is not routed through the same path as mail sent > via Eudora, > and you don't know as much about how it is sent. > > Some of our servers (or those we use to route mail to us), for example, > will "blackhole" mail coming from certain places, with no response at all, > particularly if they believe they are receiving certain kinds of "attack" > (e.g. "Directory Harvest Attack" -- trying to send to random addresses, > to see whether some of the addresses may happen to be be accepted as > valid). > > Messages thought to be spam may also be blackholed, > and scoring of "spam" may depend in part upon exactly where it came from > (could be different results from different relaying servers, > could even be different sorts of errors caused by each). > > Why don't you try sending the same messages using Outlook Express > (or any other client you happen to have, other than Eudora), > via the exact same SMTP server and all other settings (and headers). > > --
From: Christian on 7 May 2010 17:47 R.W. <ranger52oc(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > That's the rub! I can't get my hands on a bounced message because neither my > ISP nor my webhost can even tell me where they're going! Please... I _know_ that you cannot access bounced messages, since you don't know where they are. Again: I said that you should analyze the headers of a message which has been delivered to a valid recipient. You may even send a message to me - the address here is a valid address (although it is in fact only an alias to an existing mailbox so that I can change it if too much spam comes in), and I can look at the headers to find out more (I cannot guarantee to find anything, but it is worth a try). You should send your message to me from that account where the bounce messages disappear. Christian -- Christian F. Buser, Hohle Gasse 6, CH-5507 Mellingen (Switzerland) Hilfe fuer Strassenkinder in Ghana: http://www.chance-for-children.org
From: John H Meyers on 8 May 2010 19:13
On 5/7/2010 3:15 PM, R.W. wrote: > I created an account in Outlook Express, > sent a message to a bogus Yahoo address, > and it immediately bounced back > and landed in my webhost's email inbox. > And true to form, Eudora dutifully fetched it. Perfect! > > So does this shed any light on the issue? > Is the finger of blame pointing at my ISP and not my webhost?? It might shed light if any of the real info (and settings) were known, for both Outlook Express and Eudora, but you don't even want to state the real domains and server names that you use, and the above suggests that you may not have actually duplicated in Outlook Express the same outgoing info that you are using in Eudora, as well as making me wonder whether any mail that you send the same way from Eudora, even to valid addresses, is actually being delivered (have you tried sending to other addresses where you know you can receive mail? Is there unsent, queued mail remaining in your Eudora "Out" mailbox?) However, perhaps it suggests that if you now can really duplicate in Eudora what you just used in Outlook Express, then _that_ may solve your problem. Trying to solve a problem for someone else via a newsgroup or forum is sometimes like trying to drive their car remotely, while blindfolded, and could be made much easier if only the picture of what's happening at the actual location could be conveyed more completely and clearly. It is possible to send complete Eudora settings privately by email, per: http://eudorabb.qualcomm.com/showpost.php?p=40832 -- |