Can we detect a blueshift of –c?
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From: Brad Guth on 26 Apr 2010 09:10 On Apr 21, 5:35 pm, Brad Guth <bradg...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > In other words, if something substantial (such as a 10 solar mass > super-star and its tidal swarm of Jupiter+ planets) was headed as > seemingly directly towards us at c (-299.8e3 km/sec), could that item > regardless of its size, mass and vibrance be detected? > > Brad Guth, Brad_Guth, Brad.Guth, BradGuth, BG / Guth Usenet A -c encounter of any substantial star would likely offer a two year window of detection, unless it were a c galactic encounter in which case a 100,000 year window of spectacular cosmic events would be the case. Of course half way through our (c) encounter, it instantly becomes a (c) redshift. On Apr 23, 5:09 am, "Greg Neill" <gneil...(a)MOVEsympatico.ca> wrote: : If your observed star is relatively close by, it's observed : velocity will be limited by an upper bound approaching c. : The further away it is (and the closer it gets to our : cosmic horizon), the motion due to the expansion of the : space between us and it has to be added to its motion : through space, decreasing the net observed velocity. : : Near the horizon, a body moving at near c in its local space : in a direction towards us will have a net velocity near : zero (the best it could do would be to stand still with : respect to us), and so its red shift would be very small. : : There is no way for a body to be observed moving towards : us at c. That's exactly what Id thought. If we're moving away or towards other mass at c or -c, we'd be oblivious to realizing its existence. I understand there's a few rogue stars within our galaxy moving at 1500 km/sec, and it's thought possible that stars further out could easily be moving at .5c, so what if another star were moving towards the other at .5c, making their mutual blue-shift closing velocity -c. Due to their relative closing velocity of this example being -c, could either of those fast moving stars notice the other? (I don't think so) It seems anything moving away or towards us at c or c (relative to us) becomes stealth/invisible. This simply means were always at some degree of risk, unless fast moving exogravity flux can be detected. A substantial neutron star or black hole closing in on us, even if it were passing well outside of Pluto could be a cosmic form of fatal attraction, whereas just the gravitational shockwave of perhaps a little as one light year radii alone could perturb and/or traumatize most everything about our solar system. Depending on its core mass (Id suggested 2e31 kg), plus the surrounding gravitational fields as to whatever assortments of planets and assorted debris forming their combined ionized particle saturated shockwave as representing at the very least one light year radii should offer a 2 year window of realizing its passing existence (remember that our own solar cryogenic Oort cloud has nearly a light year radii). Of course we'd likely be vaporized or at least badly affected before we ever realized what just happened. NGO (near galactic object): Encountering a large galactic mass of say 1.4e42 kg might for example offer at least a 100,000 year window or cycle of detection. Perhaps a reasonably deductive swag as to our global warming trend is just offering us such an indication (not that Newtonian tidal interactions from our moon/Selene, Sirius as well as Andromeda are insignificant, and that we humans havent been making our environment measurably worse), whereas the mostly fluid mass of Earth is acting as a gravitational tsunami detector of what we cant otherwise manage to see or detect seems likely. Even if Andromeda were to be closing at 99.9999% c, it would be a good 2.5 million years before those pesky galactic interactions started taking place, plus another couple hundred thousand years worth of experiencing somewhat considerable collateral damage before parting away from one another. So, a fast arriving galaxy thats technically invisible to us because of its c blueshift velocity, as such could become a real surprise once those unexplained cosmic interactions start taking place. No doubt black holes have come at c and gone at c, so theres no telling when or where the next encounter(s) will take place. ~ BG
From: spudnik on 26 Apr 2010 12:49 you are assuming that "gravitons" "go faster" than "photons," which is three things that have never been seen. Young proved that all properties of light is wave-ish, save for the yet-to-fbe-ound photo- electrical effect, the instrumental artifact that save Newton's balls o'light for British academe. well, even if any large thing could be accelerated to so close to teh speed of light-propagation (which used to be known as "retarded," since being found not instantaneous) is "space" -- which is no-where "a" vacuum -- it'd create a shockwave of any light that it was emmitting, per Gauss's hydrodynamic shockwaves (and, after all, this is all in the field of "magnetohydrodynamics," not "vacuum energy dynamics"). > Encountering a large galactic mass of say 1.4e42 kg might for example > offer at least a 100,000 year window or cycle of detection. Perhaps a > reasonably deductive swag as to our global warming trend is just > offering us such an indication (not that Newtonian tidal interactions > from our moon/Selene, Sirius as well as Andromeda are insignificant, > and that we humans havent been making our environment measurably > worse), whereas the mostly fluid mass of Earth is acting as a > gravitational tsunami detector of what we cant otherwise manage to > see or detect seems likely. > > Even if Andromeda were to be closing at 99.9999% c, it would be a good > 2.5 million years before those pesky galactic interactions started > taking place, plus another couple hundred thousand years worth of > experiencing somewhat considerable collateral damage before parting > away from one another. So, a fast arriving galaxy thats technically > invisible to us because of its c blueshift velocity, as such could > become a real surprise once those unexplained cosmic interactions > start taking place. No doubt black holes have come at c and gone at > c, so theres no telling when or where the next encounter(s) will take > place. thus: what ever it says, Shapiro's last book is just a polemic; his real "proof" is _1599_; the fans of de Vere are hopelessly stuck-up -- especially if they went to Harry Potter PS#1. http://www.google.com/url?sa=D&q=http://entertainment.timesonline.co..... --Light: A History! http://wlym.com
From: Brad Guth on 26 Apr 2010 13:43 On Apr 26, 9:49 am, spudnik <Space...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > you are assuming that "gravitons" "go faster" > than "photons," which is three things that have > never been seen. Young proved that all properties > of light is wave-ish, save for the yet-to-fbe-ound photo- > electrical effect, the instrumental artifact that save Newton's balls > o'light for British academe. well, even if > any large thing could be accelerated to so close > to teh speed of light-propagation (which used to be known > as "retarded," since being found not instantaneous) is "space" > -- which is no-where "a" vacuum -- > it'd create a shockwave of any light that it was emmitting, > per Gauss's hydrodynamic shockwaves (and, after all, > this is all in the field of "magnetohydrodynamics," > not "vacuum energy dynamics"). > > > > > Encountering a large galactic mass of say 1.4e42 kg might for example > > offer at least a 100,000 year window or cycle of detection. Perhaps a > > reasonably deductive swag as to our global warming trend is just > > offering us such an indication (not that Newtonian tidal interactions > > from our moon/Selene, Sirius as well as Andromeda are insignificant, > > and that we humans havent been making our environment measurably > > worse), whereas the mostly fluid mass of Earth is acting as a > > gravitational tsunami detector of what we cant otherwise manage to > > see or detect seems likely. > > > Even if Andromeda were to be closing at 99.9999% c, it would be a good > > 2.5 million years before those pesky galactic interactions started > > taking place, plus another couple hundred thousand years worth of > > experiencing somewhat considerable collateral damage before parting > > away from one another. So, a fast arriving galaxy thats technically > > invisible to us because of its c blueshift velocity, as such could > > become a real surprise once those unexplained cosmic interactions > > start taking place. No doubt black holes have come at c and gone at > > c, so theres no telling when or where the next encounter(s) will take > > place. > > thus: > what ever it says, Shapiro's last book is just a polemic; > his real "proof" is _1599_; > the fans of de Vere are hopelessly stuck-up -- > especially if they went to Harry Potter PS#1.http://www.google.com/url?sa=D&q=http://entertainment.timesonline.co.... > > --Light: A History!http://wlym.com Yes, I'll buy your "magnetohydrodynamics" that should give off a terrific shockwave of perhaps several ly for a main sequence or larger star moving away or towards us at respectively near c or -c, and otherwise <1e6 ly radii for something of a galactic scale. ~ BG
From: spudnik on 26 Apr 2010 15:31 well, yes; the shockwave will precede the impossibly- accelerated object, the slower it is from c; so-much for gedanken****. > Yes, I'll buy your "magnetohydrodynamics" that should give off a > terrific shockwave of perhaps several ly for a main sequence or larger > star moving away or towards us at respectively near c or -c, and > otherwise <1e6 ly radii for something of a galactic scale. thus: why do you always repeat this error?... no "dopplerian shift" changes any velocity; that is not what shifts, and if you stand directly in front of the train, it's even clearer, as if passes. anyway, M&M did not find no result, and their result was refined by others, DCMiller e.g. -- not that that means that an aether is required! > How can you or anyone measure the speed > of the light coming from across the Milky Way? I made the correct > assumption that light velocity is V = 'c' plus or minus v, or the > velocity of the source. The mathematical check of M-M using that thus: so, why cannot the "propagation of light" be solely through matter in space?... what is a single quality of aether, that is required for "electromagnetism?" thus: what ever it says, Shapiro's last book is just a polemic; his real "proof" is _1599_; the fans of de Vere are hopelessly stuck-up -- especially if they went to Harry Potter PS#1. http://www.google.com/url?sa=D&q=http://entertainment.timesonline.co.... --Light: A History! http://wlym.com
From: Brad Guth on 26 Apr 2010 22:26
A -c encounter of any substantial star would likely offer a two year window of detection, unless it were a c galactic encounter, in which case a minimum 100,000 year window of spectacular cosmic events would be the case. Of course half way through our (c) encounter thats knocking our galactic socks off, whereas midpoint it instantly becomes a (c) redshift exit (taking at least another 100,000 years) while zooming itself out the backdoor of the Milky Way, so to speak. On Apr 23, 5:09 am, "Greg Neill" <gneil...(a)MOVEsympatico.ca> wrote: : If your observed star is relatively close by, it's observed : velocity will be limited by an upper bound approaching c. : The further away it is (and the closer it gets to our : cosmic horizon), the motion due to the expansion of the : space between us and it has to be added to its motion : through space, decreasing the net observed velocity. : : Near the horizon, a body moving at near c in its local space : in a direction towards us will have a net velocity near : zero (the best it could do would be to stand still with : respect to us), and so its red shift would be very small. : : There is no way for a body to be observed moving towards : us at c. That's pretty much exactly what Id thought. If we are moving away or towards other mass at c or -c, we'd be oblivious as to realizing the core or center of its existence. I understand there's a few rogue stars within our galaxy moving along at 1500 km/sec, and it's thought possible that stars further out could easily be moving at .5c(150,000 km/sec), so what if an incoming star were moving towards the other .5c outgoing star, making their mutual blueshift closing velocity -c. Due to their relative closing velocity of this example being -c, could either of those fast moving stars notice the other? (I don't think so) It seems anything moving away or towards us at c or c (relative to us) becomes stealth/invisible. This simply means were always at some degree of risk, unless FTL exogravity flux can be detected. A substantial neutron star or black hole closing in on us, even if it were passing well outside of Pluto could easily be a cosmic form of fatal attraction, whereas just the gravitational shockwave of perhaps a little as one light year radii alone could perturb and/or traumatize most everything about our solar system. Depending on its core mass (Id suggested 2e31 kg), plus the surrounding gravitational fields as to whatever assortments of planets and assorted debris forming their combined ionized particle saturated shockwave as representing at the very least one light year radii should offer a 2 year window of realizing its passing existence (remember that our own solar cryogenic Oort cloud extends to nearly a light year radii). Of course we'd likely be vaporized or at least badly affected before we ever realized what just happened. NGO (near galactic object): Encountering a large galactic mass of say 1.4e42 kg like Andromeda of 150 ly diameter, might for example offer at least a 150,000 year window or cycle of detection (more likely w/shockwave <1e6 years worth). Perhaps a reasonably deductive swag as to our global warming trend is just offering us such an indication (not that Newtonian tidal interactions from our moon/Selene, Sirius as well as Andromeda are not exactly insignificant, and that we humans havent been making our environment measurably worse), whereas the mostly fluid mass of Earth is acting as a gravitational tsunami detector of what we cant otherwise manage to see or detect seems likely. Even if Andromeda were to be closing at 99.9999% c, it would likely be 2.5 million years before those pesky galactic interactions started taking place, plus another couple hundred thousand years worth of experiencing somewhat considerable collateral damage before these galaxies parted away from one another. So, any fast arriving galaxy thats technically invisible to us because of its c blueshift velocity, as such could become a real surprise once those unexplained cosmic interactions start taking place. No doubt black holes have merged at c and just as suddenly gone out the other side at c, so theres no telling when or where those next little surprise encounter(s) will take place. Fortunately, even edge on edge our Milky Way and Andromeda are wide open spaces, of perhaps 99.9999% empty or devoid of significant matter. So the odds of direct physical interactions are astronomically slim. However, those passing shock waves could prove too much for us. ~ BG |