Cheap PCB fab place (for non-urgent stuff)
in [Design]
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From: krw on 16 Apr 2010 18:51 On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 10:15:26 -0400, Hammy <spam(a)spam.com> wrote: >On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 06:18:53 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >wrote: > > >> >>Wait a few years and then (try to) write that again. When you have your >>degree, a 11-12h job, wife, kids, a mortgage, not one minute of truly >>free time, and you just got a call that your son turfed his bike on Old >>Mill Road and is in the ER ... :-) > >When I went on interviews after I graduated a lot of the places did >their own in house prototyping and small production runs several had >there own Pick & Place machines etc. These were I'd say medium to >large companies. With anywhere from 10 to over a hundred employees. We do our own pick&place but would never consider doing our own PCBs. Too much EPA nonsense. We do have a prototype machine, but it been sitting in its shipping crate for four or five years. >For a one man operation yea you wouldn't have time for prototyping or >it wouldn't be cost effective. If you have a staff with say a couple >of Tech's it could be part of their jobs. > >You can't really factor in design time and artwork your doing that >anyway or you're not engineering anything. > > For me to transfer the artwork to PCB and etch the boards mentioned >it would take 2 to 3 hours. This DOESN'T include drilling holes other >then four for alignment (top/bot) and populating the boards. Two or three hours is *far* more than the cost of these proto-houses. Figure at least $100/hr for everyone involved. > If you have a proper etchant tank its not like you have to waste time >watching the boards etch (unless you're into that stuff). Put them in >the tank set the timer and go about other stuff.So a total time of 1 >hour to an hour and a half of your time would be spent fabricating the >boards not unreasonable. You would probably waste as much time getting >quotes. Who maintains the tanks? Does the EPA paperwork? Pays the fines for spills? No thanks.
From: Joerg on 16 Apr 2010 18:54 Martin Riddle wrote: > "Joerg" <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote in message > news:82rn1jFo25U2(a)mid.individual.net... >> Nico Coesel wrote: >>> Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >>> >>>> Martin Riddle wrote: >>>>> "Joerg" <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote in message >>>>> news:82jdnbFkdmU3(a)mid.individual.net... >>>>>> Rich Webb wrote: >>>>>>> On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 18:41:37 -0700, Joerg >>>>>>> <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Gents, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Was mentioned in this month's IEEE Spectrum: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://batchpcb.com/index.php/Faq >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It's not something for urgent projects, you can't have more than >>>>>>>> four layers and no really small drill sizes but it sure is >>>>>>>> cheap. Seems like this is run by Sparkfun. >>>>>>> I've used it and it's fully in compliance with the old saying >>>>>>> "Good, >>>>>>> fast, or cheap. Pick two." No complaints at all about the board >>>>>>> quality >>>>>>> (two-sided) and the prices are certainly good. Actually, I >>>>>>> received >>>>>>> twice the number of boards that I had ordered at no extra cost, >>>>>>> presumably because it was used to fill out the panel. They did >>>>>>> take a >>>>>>> while to be received, though! >>>>>>> >>>>>> Sure, it's only for projects along the lines of "I always wanted >>>>>> to have ...", not for urgent client stuff. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Regards, Joerg >>>>> Just got a quote from http://www.myropcb.com/ on a 2 layer board >>>>> (5x6), $90 for 5 pcs. >>>>> This is almost $2.50 a square inch. Except its for 5 and delivery >>>>> is 2 weeks. >>>>> Someone here had pointed them out. We had some 4 layer stuff done >>>>> and the quality is excellent. >>>>> >>>> Thanks, sounds like a good deal. Unfortunately they seem to do RoHS >>>> boards which I avoid whenever possible. Most of my projects are >>>> non-EU or exempt. >>> Just have the boards gold plated. The ROHS HAL finishing is okay >>> these >>> days. There are also silver plated boards but these are slightly >>> harder to solder. I spray those with flux the minute they arrive. >>> >> That's what I did once. It cost extra but the boards sure looked posh, >> like jewelry. The client was mighty impressed :-) >> >> Do they still do nickel-plating these days? Soon I'll have to design >> one that needs an RF tight contact to an aluminum enclosure. In the >> good old days one could have aluminum nickel-plated but lately all >> sorts of environmetal laws threw all that a curve. >> >> -- > > They must do nickel plating plating prior to gold plating, otherwise the > copper will migrate in to the gold and corrode it. > I know of no other metal that would be substituted. > I meant nickel sans the gold step. But I assume they would. The other side would be the aluminum. In the late 80's that was not a problem but with all the new rules and regs, who knows? -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
From: Joerg on 16 Apr 2010 18:55 Martin Riddle wrote: > "Joerg" <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote in message > news:82rikoFv55U1(a)mid.individual.net... >> Joel Koltner wrote: >>> "Joerg" <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote in message >>> news:82r67sFha4U1(a)mid.individual.net... >>>> Thanks, sounds like a good deal. Unfortunately they seem to do RoHS >>>> boards which I avoid whenever possible. >>> This is a good strategy. >>> >>> But do you think it'll even be possible in another, say, 5 years? >>> Today pretty much all the parts are meant for RoHS processes, so I'm >>> thinking that since running RoHS and non-RoHS means having to keep >>> two reflow ovens around, over time most all CMs will just go >>> all-RoHS? ... >> >> Possibly. But that would be sad. >> >>> ... >>> (Especially for commercial products -- for the military/NASA/etc. >>> where price is no object, I expect niche "leaded" assemblers will >>> stick around... just as there's already a niche market in de-balling >>> lead-free BGAs and re-balling them with leaded solder, often at a >>> cost close to or exceeding the original price of the part!) >>> >> BGA is another story. I avoid them when at all possible because they >> are causing so much grief. Having a stiff ceramic-like chip with >> solder pads on a structure such as FR-4 that is by nature somewhat >> flexible has IMHO always been a rather sick concept. >> >> <told_ya_so_mode> >> The consequences were as predictable as the real estate bubble bust, >> pretty soon expensive stuff failed and BGA fix-it shops sprung up in >> lots of places. Some folks called me a Luddite for shunning BGAs, many >> of them stopped saying that after some time :-) >> </told_ya_so_mode> >> >> For the same reason I prefer MSOP over DFN. Strangely, the DFN >> packages are usually more available. >> >> -- > > They guys that make stuff that go into things that fly, avoid BGA's like > the plague. > I design stuff that goes into things that fly :-) But that's not the only reason why I avoid them. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
From: Joerg on 16 Apr 2010 18:56 Martin Riddle wrote: > "John Devereux" <john(a)devereux.me.uk> wrote in message > news:877ho7s30b.fsf(a)devereux.me.uk... >> Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> writes: >> >>> John Devereux wrote: >>>> Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> writes: >>>> >>>>> John Devereux wrote: >>>>>> Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> writes: >> [...] >> >>>>>>> Thanks, sounds like a good deal. Unfortunately they seem to do >>>>>>> RoHS >>>>>>> boards which I avoid whenever possible. Most of my projects are >>>>>>> non-EU >>>>>>> or exempt. >>>>>> Well.... don't order them RoHS then! What, you're going to boycott >>>>>> them >>>>>> because they *can* do RoHS? :) >>>>>> >>>>> No, will have to ask. But what I found with several shops is that >>>>> their standard procedure is RoHS and if you deviate from that >>>>> there'll >>>>> be steep extra charges. Then I'd prefer a place that has a standard >>>>> non-RoHS process. However, often I was able to negotiate the $500 >>>>> or >>>>> whatever non-RoHS surcharge away. >>>> AFAIK, it is RoHS that is the non-standard option, just like you >>>> want. If you go into their quoting system you will see that you have >>>> to >>>> change the defaults for both PCB material and PCB finishing if you >>>> do >>>> want RoHS. >>>> >>> Thanks, I looked at the text on the main page which states RoHS. But >>> it is good to know that one can bow out sans penalty. >>> >>> >>>> Myro are the Canadian office of a Chinese manufacturer AIUI. I have >>>> been >>>> dealing with them (from the UK) for over 7 years with generally very >>>> good experience. Some of the pooling services might give better >>>> pricing >>>> on prototypes but have their own restrictions. With Myro you can >>>> have >>>> non-standard board thicknesses, routing shapes, panelization, >>>> scoring, >>>> solder resist colours etc. I have even had them make multiple >>>> designs on >>>> the same panel, they don't seem to mind as long as they are >>>> pre-combined >>>> in the gerbers, in fact there is an option for that on the quote >>>> form. >>>> >>> That is nice, others do not like it or slap on a penalty if you >>> combine designs. Some of my design just look like two because there >>> is >>> a 10mm isolation barrier with absolutely nothing on it. >>> >>> Hopefully Canada doesn't mean it has to go through customs twice, >>> China -> Canada -> USA. >> For the UK they come straight from China, don't know about USA. >> > > They do ship direct from China to the USA. > Cool! It's bookmarked. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
From: RST Engineering on 17 Apr 2010 02:36
On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 15:55:55 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >Martin Riddle wrote: >> "Joerg" <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote in message >> news:82rikoFv55U1(a)mid.individual.net... >>> Joel Koltner wrote: >>>> "Joerg" <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote in message >>>> news:82r67sFha4U1(a)mid.individual.net... >>>>> Thanks, sounds like a good deal. Unfortunately they seem to do RoHS >>>>> boards which I avoid whenever possible. >>>> This is a good strategy. >>>> >>>> But do you think it'll even be possible in another, say, 5 years? >>>> Today pretty much all the parts are meant for RoHS processes, so I'm >>>> thinking that since running RoHS and non-RoHS means having to keep >>>> two reflow ovens around, over time most all CMs will just go >>>> all-RoHS? ... >>> >>> Possibly. But that would be sad. >>> >>>> ... >>>> (Especially for commercial products -- for the military/NASA/etc. >>>> where price is no object, I expect niche "leaded" assemblers will >>>> stick around... just as there's already a niche market in de-balling >>>> lead-free BGAs and re-balling them with leaded solder, often at a >>>> cost close to or exceeding the original price of the part!) >>>> >>> BGA is another story. I avoid them when at all possible because they >>> are causing so much grief. Having a stiff ceramic-like chip with >>> solder pads on a structure such as FR-4 that is by nature somewhat >>> flexible has IMHO always been a rather sick concept. >>> >>> <told_ya_so_mode> >>> The consequences were as predictable as the real estate bubble bust, >>> pretty soon expensive stuff failed and BGA fix-it shops sprung up in >>> lots of places. Some folks called me a Luddite for shunning BGAs, many >>> of them stopped saying that after some time :-) >>> </told_ya_so_mode> >>> >>> For the same reason I prefer MSOP over DFN. Strangely, the DFN >>> packages are usually more available. >>> >>> -- >> >> They guys that make stuff that go into things that fly, avoid BGA's like >> the plague. >> > >I design stuff that goes into things that fly :-) > >But that's not the only reason why I avoid them. |