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From: mdr1024 on 17 Oct 2006 13:05

John H Meyers wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 20:59:40 -0500, Marco Radzinschi wrote:
>
> > I would not have purchased the 50G had it looked blue/purple/silver/gold/etc -
> > I like black.
>
> "Black is a very unimaginative color.
> Are they all going to be black?"
>
> [Bill Hewlett, when first shown an HP45 prototype or mock-up]
> http://www.hpmuseum.org/techclas.htm
>
> I'm happy myself with Gold (HP12C, 49G+, even 50G if made in Gold).
>

Unimaginative, yes, but at least it looks professional. I don't want
something on my desk that looks like it came out of sesame street.

> > I can see that the proper way to use this contraption is in RPN mode
> > (why are the parentheses a secondary function?)
>
> (a) Because parentheses are not needed in RPN;
> they are needed only for algebraic expressions,
> while RPN is actually the proper way to use the calcs,
> as you have wisely discerned.
>

My question was rhetorical - it is obvious that Algebraic mode was an
afterthought, or else it wouldn't be a secondary function.

This would be like TI making an RPN mode with a SHIFT+ENTER key. :-)

> (b) Most calculators having parentheses
> dedicate *two* main keys to them;
> the HP Graphing calculators,
> although requiring a shift to enter parentheses,
> enter both parens of a *matched*pair* at the same time;
> thus they not only require no more keystrokes than any other calc,
> but they also promote and ensure the proper matching of parens,
> which other calcs don't do at all.

True, I did notice that, though I won't say I prefer it.

>
> Note that other delimiters [] and "" are likewise entered
> in matched pairs by HP Graphing calcs, while at the same time,
> keyboard real-estate is better used -- isn't that all pretty clever?
>
> > and indeed I find the ALG mode cumbersome
> > on *this* calculator (not in general).
>
> It's not pretty much like a TI?
>
> Then I guess HP failed in trying to make a TI calc
> which accidentally contained an HP calc underneath its exterior :)
>

They did fail - miserably. I don't know why they bothered with trying
to make it look like a TI Calculator, with the "Choose Boxes" (which
suck) and a crappy Algebraic mode if they were not going to do it
properly.

I like the soft menus with the option to show me the full names, for
example - TI-85/86 do not have this feature, and I was disappointed
that the TI-92/89 did not have soft menus.

OTOH, I suppose it could be considered wise to include soft/full menus
and let the user choose - I would certainly have liked the TI-89 more
if it had this option.

> > The first thing I did was to switch to RPN and Soft-Menus, which I
> > prefer from my TI-85 days, but the user's guide switches back and forth
> > between ALG/RPN instructions, and it is a pain to follow.
>
> The Marketing Dept. should be forced to become real users first :)

Agreed. The manual goes something like "In Alg mode...," a page later,
"In RPN mode..." and this goes on for 800+ pages (with mistakes) !

It's akin to having GUI + Command Line instructions side-by-side in an
OS X guide !

>
> > Just my own opinion, but HP should have provided two versions
> > of the "User's Guide" - one in RPN, one in ALG.
>
> You can get a PDF of the original HP48G series Users' Guide,
> which covers practically everything but the CAS,
> and likewise a copy of the original Advanced Users Reference (AUR)
> which covers programming and all individual functions more thoroughly
> (although the new AUR is supposedly based on the old one anyway).

Thanks - I will do that just to get up to speed on the RPN (RPL)
interface, but I do need to get proficient with the CAS, even if it is
used from the stack, and the manual is just plain convoluted.

I bought this thing because the CAS is presumably more powerful (read:
flexible) than the one TI provides.

I found a guide for the CAS written by Ren´ee De Graeve which seems
comprehensive, but it is for the ALG mode only.

>
> CalcPro even claims to still have Jim Donnelly's gem
> "HP48 Handbook" (2nd Edition) -- very handy for UserRPL programmers.
>
> > I printed out the "Advanced User's Guide" for the 49G+,
> > and it is easier to follow than the User's Guide for the 50G.
>
> Only "advanced" users even read manuals, anyway,
> so who cares about the "for dummies" guides?
> [those written for people who use ALG mode :]
>

Actually, I can follow the AUG for the 49G+, and I was able to create
some User RPL programs fairly quickly, which I have never used before.

> Many people soon "grok" the initially strange environment,
> despite all odds, and tend to become devoted fans
> after seeing how much the system can do,
> and how briliantly it was originally designed,
> even if forcing ALG mode into the product
> did its best to disguise what was already there.
>
> [r->] [OFF]

Someone else already said this, but HP should have done something
unique and useful, like integrating the EQW into the stack, as someone
suggested.

At the very least, the menus and layout should be identical in both
modes, which they are not. Having two completely different modes of
operation makes it far more difficult to use than need be.

Just my thoughts, and mine only.

- Marco

From: John H Meyers on 17 Oct 2006 14:04
On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 12:05:18 -0500, Marco Radzinschi wrote:

> HP should have done something unique and useful,
> like integrating the EQW into the stack, as someone suggested.

I'm not quite clear on what "integrating the EQW into the stack"
means, and whether or not this is already present, for you can
on the one hand have the stack display formulas in "textbook" form
(as displayed by EQW), and you can also browse the stack and
edit what's on any level of it -- uh-oh, it seems that somehow
not all of SCROLL, EDIT, EDITB, VISIT and VISITB were incorporated
into the "Interactive Stack" menu, even though
there are two nice menu keys with *six* total shifted/unshifted
combinations available to spread those five functions among,
so why can't what's still missing (viz. EDITB) be added to that menu,
in a position which otherwise at present does nothing at all?

I seem to recall asking that same thing about seven years ago,
but I forgot to keep bringing it up every day since
(I must have thought that VPN would take care of that for me :)

Well, you can do it anyway -- just ROLL the desired item
down to level 1 and press cursor-down -- there,
now you can edit it with EQW, and roll it back up
to where it was afterwards; this is what the Interactive Stack
menu does anyway, except that even on the old 48G series
it never accounted for the possibility of an edit changing
the number of items on the stack, which isn't the least
difficult to also fix while one is adding the missing
menu functions (in case anyone is :)

A simple user program could take the stack level number
as an argument and do just that -- how about using it
as an introductory programming exercise?

Perhaps it was all the result of clever marketing research,
which might have found that serious geeks need to have
something which they must add themselves to complete the product,
the same as serious housewives felt unfulfilled unless they
could add in some additional essential ingredient, such as eggs,
which must therefore be left out of the pre-packaged cake mix
if you want to build a base of truly satisfied
(and involved) customers :)

Based on all past experiences, you can be sure that anything
that enough people would like to have can be added on
by someone who feels like making yet another library;
it's a very open-ended system, as you can see
from all the stuff at www.hpcalc.org,
for both 48- and 49- series,
which each could add on more features forever,
if only life weren't short and ROM weren't full :)

http://www.bartleby.com/100/111.52.html

[r->] [OFF]
From: mdr1024 on 17 Oct 2006 14:37

John H Meyers wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 12:05:18 -0500, Marco Radzinschi wrote:
>
> > HP should have done something unique and useful,
> > like integrating the EQW into the stack, as someone suggested.
>
> I'm not quite clear on what "integrating the EQW into the stack"
> means, and whether or not this is already present, for you can
> on the one hand have the stack display formulas in "textbook" form
> (as displayed by EQW), and you can also browse the stack and
> edit what's on any level of it -- uh-oh, it seems that somehow
> not all of SCROLL, EDIT, EDITB, VISIT and VISITB were incorporated
> into the "Interactive Stack" menu, even though
> there are two nice menu keys with *six* total shifted/unshifted
> combinations available to spread those five functions among,
> so why can't what's still missing (viz. EDITB) be added to that menu,
> in a position which otherwise at present does nothing at all?
>
> I seem to recall asking that same thing about seven years ago,
> but I forgot to keep bringing it up every day since
> (I must have thought that VPN would take care of that for me :)
>
> Well, you can do it anyway -- just ROLL the desired item
> down to level 1 and press cursor-down -- there,
> now you can edit it with EQW, and roll it back up
> to where it was afterwards; this is what the Interactive Stack
> menu does anyway, except that even on the old 48G series
> it never accounted for the possibility of an edit changing
> the number of items on the stack, which isn't the least
> difficult to also fix while one is adding the missing
> menu functions (in case anyone is :)
>
> A simple user program could take the stack level number
> as an argument and do just that -- how about using it
> as an introductory programming exercise?

Yes, I will have to play around with customizing this sucker when I get
a chance. I'm just not particularly happy with the frigging manual.

I just took a look at the 48G manual from hpcalc.org, and it just seems
to flow better than "In ALG mode...," "in RPN mode...," which is
impossible to read without "skipping over" sections, which don't even
fall on page breaks.

If they had dedicated odd pages to RPN and even pages to ALG (or
something similar), then one could just skip entire pages, but the way
it is now it has half page RPN, half page ALG, which seriously slows
down traversing through it.

(See pages 2-50 to 2-55 in the 50G User's Guide for an example of this
back and forth nonsense).

> Perhaps it was all the result of clever marketing research,
> which might have found that serious geeks need to have
> something which they must add themselves to complete the product,
> the same as serious housewives felt unfulfilled unless they
> could add in some additional essential ingredient, such as eggs,
> which must therefore be left out of the pre-packaged cake mix
> if you want to build a base of truly satisfied
> (and involved) customers :)

An interesting perspective, since it is indeed true that geeks want
customizeability. Why else would we buy programmable calculators
otherwise?

(As an aside, I would wager that 95% of the TI user community does not
use any programming facilities on their calculators).

> Based on all past experiences, you can be sure that anything
> that enough people would like to have can be added on
> by someone who feels like making yet another library;
> it's a very open-ended system, as you can see
> from all the stuff at www.hpcalc.org,
> for both 48- and 49- series,
> which each could add on more features forever,
> if only life weren't short and ROM weren't full :)

Ahh, but that is why I purchased a 1 GB SD Card. :-)

Word to the wise - if you decide to buy that cheap $20 card on sale
that runs at 32X instead of the higher speed versions, you will have a
slight noticeable delay when turning on the calculator.

I can live with the extra second wait given the price, but there is no
delay when I use my 133X SD Card.

- Marco

From: mdr1024 on 17 Oct 2006 20:49

John H Meyers wrote:

> Perhaps it was all the result of clever marketing research,
> which might have found that serious geeks need to have
> something which they must add themselves to complete the product,
> the same as serious housewives felt unfulfilled unless they
> could add in some additional essential ingredient, such as eggs,
> which must therefore be left out of the pre-packaged cake mix
> if you want to build a base of truly satisfied
> (and involved) customers :)

I am starting to see the power of this thing. I got tired of Expanding
and Collecting my results to simplify them, so I assigned << EXPAND
SIMPLIFY >> to the most useless key I could find: the HIST key (Up
arrow does the same, no?).

Very nice...

From: Veli-Pekka Nousiainen on 18 Oct 2006 08:59
Yao Konan wrote:
X
>> Basic 128K ROM+128K RAM + SDIO system for students
>> AND
>> a more versatile Phone Edition 256K +256K + SDIO + CFII
>> with GPS WLAN BluTooth etc., - for professionals
>
> I don't understand those 2 configurations above.
> Are you meaning that real calculators would have those specs or that
> the emulated calculator will show those specs to the user ?
> Because 128 KB/256 KB of RAM seems very small for a graphing
> calculator especially after having removed the limitations of SATURN.
> The Casio fx-9860 G SD for example,has 512 KB of RAM(with 64 KB of
> user RAM),1.5 MB of user flash,a SD slot and the classpad CPU and it
> is supposed to compete with the TI84+ !!!

)(/&%("!/?&=)(/ Oh brother...
My bad: it should be MB instead of calculator KB
The main idea is to speed things up 10 [ * ] and memory 1000 [ * ]

>> Both shouls have a thumping qwerty keyboard that is redefinable
>> optional keyboard overlays will help
>> --
>> Veli-Pekka


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