Decent 49G/50G Guide for new HP User?
in [HP48]
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From: Marco Radzinschi on 16 Oct 2006 21:59 Hello, I've been meaning to get an HP Calculator for some time, as I was impressed by the HP48 when I ran accross it in high school. Bad reviews kept me from purchasing either the 49G (slow, color is very,very, awful) and the 49G+ due to keyboard problems. I waited until a month after the 50G came out, and I just purchased one after reading that the keyboard problems are no longer there. This may seem superficial, but I prefer the black color of the 50G - it reminds me of the TI-85 I got when I was 12 yo. Frankly, I would not have purchased the 50G had it looked blue/purple/silver/gold/etc - I like black. I also like that the keyboard layout is "straight" (not curved), unlike the TI-89 Titanium (I have the original TI-89 - nicer keyboard layout than the 89T). So far, I haven't noticed any keyboard problems, and the tactile feedback seems nice, though it took a little bit to get used to it. OTOH, the manuals for the HP 50G are awful. I can see that the proper way to use this contraption is in RPN mode (why are the parentheses a secondary function?), and indeed I find the ALG mode cumbersome on *this* calculator (not in general). The first thing I did was to switch to RPN and Soft-Menus, which I prefer from my TI-85 days, but the user's guide switches back and forth between ALG/RPN instructions, and it is a pain to follow. Just my own opinion, but HP should have provided two versions of the "User's Guide" - one in RPN, one in ALG. In any case, are there any decent tutorials/guides out there for the 49G/50G? I am not averse to reading a manual as long as it makes sense. I can follow NetBSD/OpenBSD manuals with ease, for example, but the 50G guide is convoluted. I printed out the "Advanced User's Guide" for the 49G+, and it is easier to follow than the User's Guide for the 50G. I ran accorss Gilberto Urroz's two-volume "Science And Engineering Mathematics With The HP 49G," which appears to be comprehensive, at least from the table of contents. Has anyone bought this? Is it worth the $60 for both volumes? Any thoughts welcome. - Marco
From: John H Meyers on 16 Oct 2006 23:01 On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 20:59:40 -0500, Marco Radzinschi wrote: > I would not have purchased the 50G had it looked blue/purple/silver/gold/etc - > I like black. "Black is a very unimaginative color. Are they all going to be black?" [Bill Hewlett, when first shown an HP45 prototype or mock-up] http://www.hpmuseum.org/techclas.htm I'm happy myself with Gold (HP12C, 49G+, even 50G if made in Gold). > I can see that the proper way to use this contraption is in RPN mode > (why are the parentheses a secondary function?) (a) Because parentheses are not needed in RPN; they are needed only for algebraic expressions, while RPN is actually the proper way to use the calcs, as you have wisely discerned. (b) Most calculators having parentheses dedicate *two* main keys to them; the HP Graphing calculators, although requiring a shift to enter parentheses, enter both parens of a *matched*pair* at the same time; thus they not only require no more keystrokes than any other calc, but they also promote and ensure the proper matching of parens, which other calcs don't do at all. Note that other delimiters [] and "" are likewise entered in matched pairs by HP Graphing calcs, while at the same time, keyboard real-estate is better used -- isn't that all pretty clever? > and indeed I find the ALG mode cumbersome > on *this* calculator (not in general). It's not pretty much like a TI? Then I guess HP failed in trying to make a TI calc which accidentally contained an HP calc underneath its exterior :) > The first thing I did was to switch to RPN and Soft-Menus, which I > prefer from my TI-85 days, but the user's guide switches back and forth > between ALG/RPN instructions, and it is a pain to follow. The Marketing Dept. should be forced to become real users first :) > Just my own opinion, but HP should have provided two versions > of the "User's Guide" - one in RPN, one in ALG. You can get a PDF of the original HP48G series Users' Guide, which covers practically everything but the CAS, and likewise a copy of the original Advanced Users Reference (AUR) which covers programming and all individual functions more thoroughly (although the new AUR is supposedly based on the old one anyway). CalcPro even claims to still have Jim Donnelly's gem "HP48 Handbook" (2nd Edition) -- very handy for UserRPL programmers. > I printed out the "Advanced User's Guide" for the 49G+, > and it is easier to follow than the User's Guide for the 50G. Only "advanced" users even read manuals, anyway, so who cares about the "for dummies" guides? [those written for people who use ALG mode :] Many people soon "grok" the initially strange environment, despite all odds, and tend to become devoted fans after seeing how much the system can do, and how briliantly it was originally designed, even if forcing ALG mode into the product did its best to disguise what was already there. [r->] [OFF]
From: Yao Konan on 17 Oct 2006 07:44 John H Meyers wrote: > On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 20:59:40 -0500, Marco Radzinschi wrote: > > "Black is a very unimaginative color. > Are they all going to be black?" Yes but it is probably the best color for a serious tool. > (a) Because parentheses are not needed in RPN; > they are needed only for algebraic expressions, > while RPN is actually the proper way to use the calcs, > as you have wisely discerned. > Unfortunately this is something HP hasn't got since the HP49G release. > > and indeed I find the ALG mode cumbersome > > on *this* calculator (not in general). > > It's not pretty much like a TI? > > Then I guess HP failed in trying to make a TI calc > which accidentally contained an HP calc underneath its exterior :) Yes they fail yet they haven't understood this since the HP49G. The solution for them was certainly not to copy TI but perhaps to design an alternative/innovative algebraic mode completely build around the equation writer. I mean something like using the equation writer directly in the history instead of as a seperate environnement. And HP should decide once and for all if they target their traditionnal market or the TI/Casio market with the HP49G series. The idea to have a jack of trades or a swiss army knife product is great when one create an uber tool,with a premium price which implement a tons of functionnalites whom some will later be refined and port to lesser though more specialised products. Just see what companies like Nokia do with products such as the N93. In french we call such products:"Vitrine technologique" though i don't know the equivalent expression in english. It is certainly not technological window,is it ? The first HP49G or even the HP49G+ should have been such a tool without the requirement to be a successful product. Though i am sure that a HP49G(or called HP58GX ?) designed with enough time/ressources on a new hardware architecture with the same or superior software(thanks to the removal or saturn limitations) even with a premium price would have been quite successful and would have provided a solid foundation for following HP calculators. N.B:To some who would object that HP would have spent too much money/time with such a strategy i would reply that it is exactly because of such thinking that the HP calculators department has such a bad reputation and must fight very hard to regain a minimum of credibility. Instead they are kind of jack trades products made to compete and especially to be price competitive with lesser (from a software and relatively hardware point of view) products. This is somehow a flawed reasonment and lead to obviously low quality products. > > The first thing I did was to switch to RPN and Soft-Menus, which I > > prefer from my TI-85 days, but the user's guide switches back and forth > > between ALG/RPN instructions, and it is a pain to follow. > > The Marketing Dept. should be forced to become real users first :) > I perfectly agree.
From: Veli-Pekka Nousiainen on 17 Oct 2006 08:19 Yao Konan wrote: X > Just see what companies like Nokia do with products such as the N93. > In french we call such products:"Vitrine technologique" though i don't > know the equivalent expression in english. > It is certainly not technological window,is it ? How about "show-off technology" ?! > The first HP49G or even the HP49G+ should have been such a tool > without the requirement to be a successful product. > Though i am sure that a HP49G(or called HP58GX ?) designed with enough > time/ressources on a new hardware architecture with the same or > superior software(thanks to the removal or saturn limitations) even > with a premium price would have been quite successful and would have > provided a solid foundation for following HP calculators. Yeah! Removing the Saturn limitations is one option for me Think about a combined Wince+emu+fast RPL2 calc option Wince would provide the usual things (using v6.0) EMU would emulate the Saturn the usual way as now: HP-51G The Fast RPL2 calc would be a direct ARM application using the full CPU speed (and idle speed, too) and providing only UserRPL compatibility and a new HPGCC support for that new RPL2 calc Basic 128K ROM+128K RAM + SDIO system for students AND a more versatile Phone Edition 256K +256K + SDIO + CFII with GPS WLAN BluTooth etc., - for professionals Both shouls have a thumping qwerty keyboard that is redefinable optional keyboard overlays will help -- Veli-Pekka
From: Yao Konan on 17 Oct 2006 12:51
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen wrote: > Yao Konan wrote: > X > > Just see what companies like Nokia do with products such as the N93. > > In french we call such products:"Vitrine technologique" though i don't > > know the equivalent expression in english. > > It is certainly not technological window,is it ? > > How about "show-off technology" ?! Yes,i think this is the right expression. > Yeah! Removing the Saturn limitations is one option for me > Think about a combined Wince+emu+fast RPL2 calc option If wince 6.0 is not as slow as Windows Mobile 5.0 this could be a good idea. Because Windows Mobile 5.0 is said to be so slow that i am very sceptic about buying a Windows Mobile 5.0 smartphone. For the time being i will stay with Symbian based smartphones. > Wince would provide the usual things (using v6.0) > EMU would emulate the Saturn the usual way as now: HP-51G > The Fast RPL2 calc would be a direct ARM application > using the full CPU speed (and idle speed, too) > and providing only UserRPL compatibility > and a new HPGCC support for that new RPL2 calc > > Basic 128K ROM+128K RAM + SDIO system for students > AND > a more versatile Phone Edition 256K +256K + SDIO + CFII > with GPS WLAN BluTooth etc., - for professionals I don't understand those 2 configurations above. Are you meaning that real calculators would have those specs or that the emulated calculator will show those specs to the user ? Because 128 KB/256 KB of RAM seems very small for a graphing calculator especially after having removed the limitations of SATURN. The Casio fx-9860 G SD for example,has 512 KB of RAM(with 64 KB of user RAM),1.5 MB of user flash,a SD slot and the classpad CPU and it is supposed to compete with the TI84+ !!! > Both shouls have a thumping qwerty keyboard that is redefinable > optional keyboard overlays will help > -- > Veli-Pekka |