Developing/compiling software
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From: ChrisQ on 23 Sep 2009 04:24 Lodewicus Maas wrote: > . > R 39,335.81 ( this is equal to 5,326.93 USD) - for a single user license > . > . around 4000 ukp, per seat ?... That's outrageously more expensive than I remember it last time I looked. I would have a hard time keeping a straight face recommending it to some clients, as the first response would be "go and find a different processor" :-(. There's plenty of choice out there. I have some sympathy for the vendors as i'm sure they are dedicated professionals in every sense, but the availability of good quality open source tools for most of the cpu landscape means a diminishing client base and less money for development. Unless they can come up with a revised business model, they seem condemned to niche markets and long term decline. If you want evidence, compare the diversity of tool vendors a decade ago with the same now. The inescapable logic is that proprietary tool vendors can't really compete with the vast number of dedicated open source developers who continuously review each others work and improve the product with each iteration. While some may claim that proprietary tools produce better code than gnu, on balance, i'm not convinced. If open source produces 80 or 90% of the quality of the proprietary tools, based on any metric, does it really matter, assuming modern high performance micros with large code spaces ?... Regards, Chris
From: David Brown on 23 Sep 2009 05:20 Lodewicus Maas wrote: > OK. So Keil is NOT an option anymore > . > The Demo/Eval version can only compile up to a max of 2K - which I > reached already. I then requested a quote from the local suppliers of > Keil software, and the quote is ... > . > . > I hope you're sitting ... > . > . > . > R 39,335.81 ( this is equal to 5,326.93 USD) - for a single user license > . > . > My whole outlook on life is "value for money", and I don't invest in > anything if this requirement is not met, but unfortunately there is no > way in which I can justify this as a hobbiest > . > I'm now busy looking at ImageCraft > . > The "doors" keep on closing, but eventually I'll get there. ImageCraft does not make an 8051 compiler - the make (amongst others) an AVR compiler. For hobby use, you have two options. You can use SDCC for free, or you can drop all thoughts about using the 8051. The Atmel AVR devices are a much better choice for most uses - 8051 is good when you have a history of using them, or when you are using specialised chips with an 8051 core. If you go for the AVR, you have several choices. ImageCraft is a good, cheap, user-friendly compiler. WinAVR is a project based on avrgcc and thus is entirely free. There are a fair number of other compilers available for the AVR, some low price and some high price - far more /realistic/ options than for the 8051, especially for hobby or low-budget use.
From: Chris H on 23 Sep 2009 07:03 In message <3ZidnbQvZPgxSCTXnZ2dnUVZ8g-dnZ2d(a)saix.net>, Lodewicus Maas <wicus.maas(a)gmail.com> writes >OK. So Keil is NOT an option anymore >. >The Demo/Eval version can only compile up to a max of 2K - which I >reached already. I then requested a quote from the local suppliers of >Keil software, and the quote is ... >R 39,335.81 ( this is equal to 5,326.93 USD) - for a single user license It should be half that..... -- \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
From: Chris H on 23 Sep 2009 07:12 In message <jHlum.172734$z%1.21899(a)newsfe12.ams2>, ChrisQ <meru(a)devnull.com> writes >Lodewicus Maas wrote: > >> . >> R 39,335.81 ( this is equal to 5,326.93 USD) - for a single user license >> . >> . > >around 4000 ukp, per seat ?... No. It if half that price in the UK >I have some sympathy for the vendors as i'm sure they are dedicated >professionals in every sense, but the availability of good quality open >source tools for most of the cpu landscape If that were the case there would be a problem but so far most of the open source compilers are no where near as good as the top commercial ones. >means a diminishing client base and less money for development. Unless >they can come up with a revised business model, they seem condemned to >niche markets and long term decline. If you want evidence, compare the >diversity of tool vendors a decade ago with the same now. True... So eventually programmers will be expected to produce their own tools and RTOS on their own time at their own expense. >The inescapable logic is that proprietary tool vendors can't really >compete with the vast number of dedicated open source developers who >continuously review each others work and improve the product with each >iteration. Who funds these open source programmers? They have to eat. The problem is the main users of the open source tools are not the ones who are producing them... -- \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
From: Chris H on 23 Sep 2009 07:15
In message <4ab9e8bc$0$26317$8404b019(a)news.wineasy.se>, David Brown <david(a)westcontrol.removethisbit.com> writes >Lodewicus Maas wrote: >> OK. So Keil is NOT an option anymore >> . >> The Demo/Eval version can only compile up to a max of 2K - which I >>reached already. I then requested a quote from the local suppliers of >>Keil software, and the quote is ... >> . >> . >> I hope you're sitting ... >> . >> . >> . >> R 39,335.81 ( this is equal to 5,326.93 USD) - for a single user license >> . >> . >> My whole outlook on life is "value for money", and I don't invest in >>anything if this requirement is not met, but unfortunately there is no >>way in which I can justify this as a hobbiest >> . >> I'm now busy looking at ImageCraft >> . >> The "doors" keep on closing, but eventually I'll get there. > >ImageCraft does not make an 8051 compiler - the make (amongst others) >an AVR compiler. > >For hobby use, you have two options. You can use SDCC for free, or you >can drop all thoughts about using the 8051. Or use the 2K Keil or the 4K Keil if you can find one. These can compile programs the SDCC can't. However for hobby use the Keil is expensive but then it is not aimed at hobby users. for commercial use one of my customers worked out the SDCC cost them about 5K in time and resources. So free to buy does not always mean completely free. Though for hobby use time is free. -- \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ |