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From: hr(bob) hofmann on 21 Jan 2010 16:00
On Jan 21, 2:53 pm, Baron <baron.nos...(a)linuxmaniac.nospam.net> wrote:
> Sandy,
>
> I'm in the UK !
>
> Drop me an Email.
>
> --
> Best Regards:
>                      Baron.

Gee - Your English is so good you almost sound American<G>.
From: Baron on 21 Jan 2010 16:33
hr(bob) hofmann(a)att.net Inscribed thus:

> On Jan 21, 2:53 pm, Baron <baron.nos...(a)linuxmaniac.nospam.net> wrote:
>> Sandy,
>>
>> I'm in the UK !
>>
>> Drop me an Email.
>>
>> --
>> Best Regards:
>> Baron.
>
> Gee - Your English is so good you almost sound American<G>.

Why, thankyou for your complement, kind sir... ;-)

--
Best Regards:
Baron.
From: Andrew Erickson on 21 Jan 2010 23:14
In article <hjaef4$p1e$1(a)news.eternal-september.org>,
Baron <baron.nospam(a)linuxmaniac.nospam.net> wrote:

> Usenet Inscribed thus:
>
> > Baron wrote:
> >> Usenet Inscribed thus:
> >>>>>I've scanned and uploaded the diagram here:
> >>>>> http://i49.tinypic.com/28r1thw.jpg
> >>>> Find & check switch 6.
> >> If that switch is OC the main motor will not run. The other side is
> >> via the timer. 6th contact from left marked (1)
> >>
> >> There is also a cutout marked 7/ that should be checked. It may be
> >> a manual reset.
> >
> >Just to get things straight: what kind of switch is this switch '6?
> >It's normally closed, yes? Do you think -- by it's position in the
> > diagram -- it's the flood protection switch?
>
> Yes its normally closed.
>
> >Where would cutout 7/ be, physically? Is it on the pump itself?
>
> Yes, probably, since its a thermal cutout. Looking at the diagram its
> shown directly above the motor. Its normally closed.
>
> >Switch '6 also controls the things immediately to the right of the
> > main circulation pump, labelled :9, '5, and 59. These look like
> > solenoid-type thingies, the ones with "triangle propellers" look maybe
> > like valves. Are they solenoid type things?
>
> 9 & 59 are probably solenoid water valves. I'm not at all sure what 5
> is.
>
> > The circle labelled '30
> > I'm pretty sure is the drain pump (in Europe apparently it's usual to
> > have two separate pumps). This pump still works.
>
> It that case it rules out switch 6. Since if 6 was open the pump
> wouldn't run.
>
> >What is your guess for the thing labelled )0 off contact 13 from
> >the left? It must be acting as some kind of sensor, I'm thinking, by
> >it's position on the right of the diagram.
> >
> >I've checked for continuity and there's no breaks in the wires that
> >I can find. However, during operation of a dishwasher cycle, no
> >voltage is ever given (by the brand new replacement controller!) to
> >the main circulation pump, as measured with a multi-meter.
> >Therefore -- it looks to me -- like the controller is expecting a
> >signal to proceed, which it never receives.
>
> One of those, possibly the one marked )0 is the timer drive motor.
> 366 could be the water level sensor.
>
> >What is the symbol marked 17&, over towards the right? It looks a
> >bit like a Christmas cracker, so I'm hoping it's some fusey cut-out
> >thing. I would dearly love to know its meaning.
>
> I think +)7 is the heater and 17& the soap dispenser.
>
> >Having had a good look at the innards of my dishwasher, I'm not
> >intimidated by it anymore. They're really very straightforward
> >things.
> >I can feel it's not far from working. It's really frustrating right
> >now, but I now feel I *can* get it working again.
> >
> > ... and of course, if it stops me having to wash up by hand every
> > day, that would be WONDERFUL!!!
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Sandy
>
> The basic operation is that of a rotary switch driven by a motor. Once
> a program has been chosen, the switch drive motor normally runs
> continuously. A solenoid is often used to cause the switch drive motor
> to step the rotary switch on to the next position depending upon some
> criteria being met. This could be :- Fill level, Temperature, Time.
> Usually the fill level has to be reached and water shut off before the
> main pump motor is allowed to start.
>
> Often the main pump motor and heater are not allowed to be both switched
> on at the same time. Then when water temperature has been reached the
> soap dispenser is activated. Then a timed wash cycle commences. Water
> is drained. Refilled and rinse aid injected and a further wash cycle
> starts.
>
> This is followed by another heat cycle designed to create a high
> temperature, and short wash before fully emptying. This is designed to
> dry the contents and leave a polish.
>
> All the above will vary depending upon the chosen program and is not any
> more than a general description of operation. Being on the spot and
> able to see what wire goes to which component is a great
> advantage. :-)

Is this indeed a rotary switch model, rather than one with all
electronic controls and a fancy touch panel? If it's the former, it
sounds possible to me that the rotary switch is at fault--either the
little timer motor for it isn't turning it (because of motor or gear
train failure), or some of the contacts are not operating properly. The
first failure mode could be tested by manually turning the switch by
small bits and seeing if the dishwasher goes through the proper stages
of washing that it's currently missing. The latter problem would
require a timing diagram of the switch to diagnose easily; there's a
chance there may be one pasted into the machine somewhere, or associated
with the schematic.

It does seem rather odd to me that, if it's a rotary switch model, the
various wires to the switch aren't shown on the schematic. On the other
hand, it is a slightly strange schematic to begin with, so I guess it
wouldn't be a complete shock.

--
Andrew Erickson

"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot
lose." -- Jim Elliot
From: Ron on 22 Jan 2010 08:15
On 22/01/2010 04:14, Andrew Erickson wrote:
> In article<hjaef4$p1e$1(a)news.eternal-september.org>,
> Baron<baron.nospam(a)linuxmaniac.nospam.net> wrote:
>
>> Usenet Inscribed thus:
>>
>>> Baron wrote:
>>>> Usenet Inscribed thus:
>>>>>>> I've scanned and uploaded the diagram here:
>>>>>>> http://i49.tinypic.com/28r1thw.jpg
>>>>>> Find& check switch 6.
>>>> If that switch is OC the main motor will not run. The other side is
>>>> via the timer. 6th contact from left marked (1)
>>>>
>>>> There is also a cutout marked 7/ that should be checked. It may be
>>>> a manual reset.
>>>
>>> Just to get things straight: what kind of switch is this switch '6?
>>> It's normally closed, yes? Do you think -- by it's position in the
>>> diagram -- it's the flood protection switch?
>>
>> Yes its normally closed.
>>
>>> Where would cutout 7/ be, physically? Is it on the pump itself?
>>
>> Yes, probably, since its a thermal cutout. Looking at the diagram its
>> shown directly above the motor. Its normally closed.
>>
>>> Switch '6 also controls the things immediately to the right of the
>>> main circulation pump, labelled :9, '5, and 59. These look like
>>> solenoid-type thingies, the ones with "triangle propellers" look maybe
>>> like valves. Are they solenoid type things?
>>
>> 9& 59 are probably solenoid water valves. I'm not at all sure what 5
>> is.
>>
>>> The circle labelled '30
>>> I'm pretty sure is the drain pump (in Europe apparently it's usual to
>>> have two separate pumps). This pump still works.
>>
>> It that case it rules out switch 6. Since if 6 was open the pump
>> wouldn't run.
>>
>>> What is your guess for the thing labelled )0 off contact 13 from
>>> the left? It must be acting as some kind of sensor, I'm thinking, by
>>> it's position on the right of the diagram.
>>>
>>> I've checked for continuity and there's no breaks in the wires that
>>> I can find. However, during operation of a dishwasher cycle, no
>>> voltage is ever given (by the brand new replacement controller!) to
>>> the main circulation pump, as measured with a multi-meter.
>>> Therefore -- it looks to me -- like the controller is expecting a
>>> signal to proceed, which it never receives.
>>
>> One of those, possibly the one marked )0 is the timer drive motor.
>> 366 could be the water level sensor.
>>
>>> What is the symbol marked 17&, over towards the right? It looks a
>>> bit like a Christmas cracker, so I'm hoping it's some fusey cut-out
>>> thing. I would dearly love to know its meaning.
>>
>> I think +)7 is the heater and 17& the soap dispenser.
>>
>>> Having had a good look at the innards of my dishwasher, I'm not
>>> intimidated by it anymore. They're really very straightforward
>>> things.
>>> I can feel it's not far from working. It's really frustrating right
>>> now, but I now feel I *can* get it working again.
>>>
>>> ... and of course, if it stops me having to wash up by hand every
>>> day, that would be WONDERFUL!!!
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Sandy
>>
>> The basic operation is that of a rotary switch driven by a motor. Once
>> a program has been chosen, the switch drive motor normally runs
>> continuously. A solenoid is often used to cause the switch drive motor
>> to step the rotary switch on to the next position depending upon some
>> criteria being met. This could be :- Fill level, Temperature, Time.
>> Usually the fill level has to be reached and water shut off before the
>> main pump motor is allowed to start.
>>
>> Often the main pump motor and heater are not allowed to be both switched
>> on at the same time. Then when water temperature has been reached the
>> soap dispenser is activated. Then a timed wash cycle commences. Water
>> is drained. Refilled and rinse aid injected and a further wash cycle
>> starts.
>>
>> This is followed by another heat cycle designed to create a high
>> temperature, and short wash before fully emptying. This is designed to
>> dry the contents and leave a polish.
>>
>> All the above will vary depending upon the chosen program and is not any
>> more than a general description of operation. Being on the spot and
>> able to see what wire goes to which component is a great
>> advantage. :-)
>
> Is this indeed a rotary switch model, rather than one with all
> electronic controls and a fancy touch panel? If it's the former, it
> sounds possible to me that the rotary switch is at fault--either the
> little timer motor for it isn't turning it (because of motor or gear
> train failure), or some of the contacts are not operating properly. The
> first failure mode could be tested by manually turning the switch by
> small bits and seeing if the dishwasher goes through the proper stages
> of washing that it's currently missing. The latter problem would
> require a timing diagram of the switch to diagnose easily; there's a
> chance there may be one pasted into the machine somewhere, or associated
> with the schematic.
>
> It does seem rather odd to me that, if it's a rotary switch model, the
> various wires to the switch aren't shown on the schematic. On the other
> hand, it is a slightly strange schematic to begin with, so I guess it
> wouldn't be a complete shock.
>

Couple of possibilities not so far mentioned I think. On one or two
models of d/w an open circuit heating element will prevent the main pump
motor from running. Also, failures of the wiring loom where it flexes as
it passes between the door and main body of the machine are common enough.

On most machines, clicking the timer switch on by hand should step the
machine through it`s program. usually starting with:- drain, fill, fill
+ main motor, drain, etc.

Ron(UK)
From: William R. Walsh on 22 Jan 2010 12:52
Hi!

> I'm pretty sure my dishwasher has just the one PCB.

Fair enough. I can't view your circuit diagram from where I am now,
but I will look at it as soon as time allows and see if I have any
further thoughts.

> And of course, drinking cups of tea and eating biscuits (cookies?).

That's always a good troubleshooting practice!

>  ...On the day the dishwasher went wonky, that morning we had
> just had our electricity reconnected to the mains grid after a week
> of being without electricity.

A-ha!

Now that's a good point to consider. When power is first restored,
it's not always stable. The voltage may be high, low or "wobbly".
That's hard on electrical equipment.

Since you mentioned a lightbulb failing and the line voltage being at
255 volts (instead of the more normal 240), it is obvious that your
line voltage was high. This puts stress on everything that is plugged
in and operating at the time. Simpler devices are likely to take it
better, at least to a point. (Had your lightbulb survived, it would
have been a good example of this theory.)

I'm afraid that it is likely your dishwasher was damaged and not just
put into a confused state. The damage probably took place within a few
minutes.

Since you've replaced the controller board, I am in agreement that you
need to check the sensors and actuators that the control board works
with to get the dishes washed. It's very possible that more damage is
lurking in the shadows.

One must consider that the power supply in the dishwasher may not have
been able to maintain proper voltage regulation, causing high or
incorrect voltages to be present in the unit. This could lead to
damaged sensors, solenoids or whatever else there is in the unit.
Careful testing of each part should be performed--hopefully the
schematic you have shows appropriate characteristics for each part.
Otherwise you will have to make some educated guesses and careful
examinations.

I'll try to get a look at the schematic you have posted and see if
that gives me any ideas.

William
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