Dumbed down consumer electronics: Adding DTV channels
in [Design]
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From: Michael A. Terrell on 8 Aug 2010 05:10 Joerg wrote: > > Jan Panteltje wrote: > > On a sunny day (Mon, 02 Aug 2010 15:08:20 -0700) it happened Joerg > > <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote in <8botupFq9aU1(a)mid.individual.net>: > > > > > >> Jan Panteltje wrote: > >>> On a sunny day (Mon, 02 Aug 2010 13:36:19 -0700) it happened > >>> Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote in > >>> <8booi7FqgtU1(a)mid.individual.net>: > >>> > > [...] > > > > >>>> [...] > >>>> > >>>>> Right, do not pay for the advertising! > >>>>> > >>>> No, we fast forward through it. One box even has an advertising > >>>> FFW button that hops it 30sec at a time. > >>> Good,. There exists soft with scene change detection too, IIRC. > >>> > >> Yeah, but it works well enough by hand. I am also rather good in > >> tuning it out in my head, reading up on stuff during the news when > >> the ads play. > > > > Once I made the mistake to actually edit it out. Those are the > > commercials I still remember, as I had to see them many times to get > > start, and end, and audio, right in the editior :-) > > > > Very few ads remained in my gray cells. The only one I remember from the > six years I lived in NL is from Douwe Egberts "En dan is er koffie". > > > > >>>>> And also the source material counts, garbage in garbage out. > >>>>> > >>>> Dancing with the Stars from BBC is super material, you really > >>>> see a difference. > >>> Now I am confused. If it was from BBC, then it must have been > >>> original 25 fps . that reminds me of dropped frames and fast > >>> pulldown, big problem with motion in a 30 fps country. Here the > >>> movies just play 25 fps, no dropped frames, but they are slightly > >>> shorter (original film was 24). The pitch of the audio is higher > >>> too. http://www.24p.com/conversion.htm > >>> > >> Oh, Jan, we live in the 21st century. The times when such major > >> events were recorded in an analog format are long gone. > > > > Cannot follow you here, BBC was recorded at 25 fps (tape) or 24 fps > > (film). You play at 30 fps (or 60), so you have to interpolate frames > > and add those at irregular intervals. I have some Linux soft for > > that, it works, but the motion is not as smooth as at the original > > speed I think. Do you think digital does not know about frame rate? > > The problem we had here with LCD TVs (seems to go away with better > > sets) was that many sets were HD compatible but displayed the 25 fps > > material at 30 fps, causing horrible horizontal irregular jumping of > > the picture. > > > > This is what's cooking these days: > > http://www.ikegami.com/br/products/hdtv/pdf/HDK77EX0401s.pdf > > Most modern cameras can be switched so you can record in several native > frame rate standards: > > http://www.ikegami.com/br/products/hdtv/hdtv_camera_frame1.html > > I don't know how they do it but there is no interpolation at all. I > believe they record in US format because the participants are mostly > American, so it's for our market. The judges are one American, one > British and one (rather hot-blooded ...) Italian. > > > > >> It's the level of the nerd factor. A big honking PC in the living > >> room requires one almost not to be married. A small one is ok, but > >> only if freshly married or close to the 50th anniversary :-) > > > > I think you still do not get the concept. I am not a fan of VDR, but > > have a look at Klaus his website: http://www.tvdr.de/ It does not > > have to be a 'big honking PC'. ... > > It is pretty big. Anyhow, ours has the described features as well or > pretty close: > > http://www.tvdr.de/software.htm > > Except we have to swap out the disk after x hours. Ok, no big deal. > > > ... My media centre PC is not in the > > living room. There is no need for that, most modern TVs can access > > files on the media server, via a menu (and ethernet). There are cheap > > interface boxes available these days with HD output and ethernet > > connection for any room you want. In fact, with all those standards > > constantly changing, the best bet is to split everything up, monitor, > > receiver, disks, DVD burner. At least something will be of use a bit > > longer then the 2 to 5 years we now have between a system change, 3D > > is here hoopla, we just had HD . Do you have your 3D set yet? > > > > No, and no need to. Same with BlueRay. Since we are into older movies > and don't like games or scifi there would be no use for that here. We > rather spend that money at the Japanese restaurant, like today :-) Do you watch any TV on http://www.hulu.com
From: Joerg on 8 Aug 2010 10:10 Michael A. Terrell wrote: > Joerg wrote: >> Out here the news is actualy not all that negative. But sometimes >> boring. For example, I really don't need to know where Chelsey Clinton >> got married. > > How about this news? A well known AM radio station lost all three > towers a few days ago. It was a well know country music station, with > its Wheeling Jamboree. > > <http://www.wtrf.com/story.cfm?func=viewstory&storyid=83934> > > <http://www.bing.com/search?q=%2bWWVA+tower+collapse&FORM=RCRE> Very sad to look at those pictures. This could be the financial end of WWVA :-( -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
From: Joerg on 8 Aug 2010 10:12 Michael A. Terrell wrote: > Joerg wrote: >> Jan Panteltje wrote: >>> On a sunny day (Mon, 02 Aug 2010 15:08:20 -0700) it happened Joerg >>> <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote in <8botupFq9aU1(a)mid.individual.net>: >>> >>> >>>> Jan Panteltje wrote: >>>>> On a sunny day (Mon, 02 Aug 2010 13:36:19 -0700) it happened >>>>> Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote in >>>>> <8booi7FqgtU1(a)mid.individual.net>: >>>>> >> [...] >> >>>>>> [...] >>>>>> >>>>>>> Right, do not pay for the advertising! >>>>>>> >>>>>> No, we fast forward through it. One box even has an advertising >>>>>> FFW button that hops it 30sec at a time. >>>>> Good,. There exists soft with scene change detection too, IIRC. >>>>> >>>> Yeah, but it works well enough by hand. I am also rather good in >>>> tuning it out in my head, reading up on stuff during the news when >>>> the ads play. >>> Once I made the mistake to actually edit it out. Those are the >>> commercials I still remember, as I had to see them many times to get >>> start, and end, and audio, right in the editior :-) >>> >> Very few ads remained in my gray cells. The only one I remember from the >> six years I lived in NL is from Douwe Egberts "En dan is er koffie". >> >>>>>>> And also the source material counts, garbage in garbage out. >>>>>>> >>>>>> Dancing with the Stars from BBC is super material, you really >>>>>> see a difference. >>>>> Now I am confused. If it was from BBC, then it must have been >>>>> original 25 fps . that reminds me of dropped frames and fast >>>>> pulldown, big problem with motion in a 30 fps country. Here the >>>>> movies just play 25 fps, no dropped frames, but they are slightly >>>>> shorter (original film was 24). The pitch of the audio is higher >>>>> too. http://www.24p.com/conversion.htm >>>>> >>>> Oh, Jan, we live in the 21st century. The times when such major >>>> events were recorded in an analog format are long gone. >>> Cannot follow you here, BBC was recorded at 25 fps (tape) or 24 fps >>> (film). You play at 30 fps (or 60), so you have to interpolate frames >>> and add those at irregular intervals. I have some Linux soft for >>> that, it works, but the motion is not as smooth as at the original >>> speed I think. Do you think digital does not know about frame rate? >>> The problem we had here with LCD TVs (seems to go away with better >>> sets) was that many sets were HD compatible but displayed the 25 fps >>> material at 30 fps, causing horrible horizontal irregular jumping of >>> the picture. >>> >> This is what's cooking these days: >> >> http://www.ikegami.com/br/products/hdtv/pdf/HDK77EX0401s.pdf >> >> Most modern cameras can be switched so you can record in several native >> frame rate standards: >> >> http://www.ikegami.com/br/products/hdtv/hdtv_camera_frame1.html >> >> I don't know how they do it but there is no interpolation at all. I >> believe they record in US format because the participants are mostly >> American, so it's for our market. The judges are one American, one >> British and one (rather hot-blooded ...) Italian. >> >>>> It's the level of the nerd factor. A big honking PC in the living >>>> room requires one almost not to be married. A small one is ok, but >>>> only if freshly married or close to the 50th anniversary :-) >>> I think you still do not get the concept. I am not a fan of VDR, but >>> have a look at Klaus his website: http://www.tvdr.de/ It does not >>> have to be a 'big honking PC'. ... >> It is pretty big. Anyhow, ours has the described features as well or >> pretty close: >> >> http://www.tvdr.de/software.htm >> >> Except we have to swap out the disk after x hours. Ok, no big deal. >> >>> ... My media centre PC is not in the >>> living room. There is no need for that, most modern TVs can access >>> files on the media server, via a menu (and ethernet). There are cheap >>> interface boxes available these days with HD output and ethernet >>> connection for any room you want. In fact, with all those standards >>> constantly changing, the best bet is to split everything up, monitor, >>> receiver, disks, DVD burner. At least something will be of use a bit >>> longer then the 2 to 5 years we now have between a system change, 3D >>> is here hoopla, we just had HD . Do you have your 3D set yet? >>> >> No, and no need to. Same with BlueRay. Since we are into older movies >> and don't like games or scifi there would be no use for that here. We >> rather spend that money at the Japanese restaurant, like today :-) > > > Do you watch any TV on http://www.hulu.com Not yet. Since the switch to DTV our TV consumption has gone down significantly. And maybe that's a good thing :-) -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
From: Joerg on 8 Aug 2010 10:25 JosephKK wrote: > On Wed, 04 Aug 2010 18:36:25 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> > wrote: > >> krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: >>> On Wed, 04 Aug 2010 17:30:00 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >>> >>>> krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: >>>>> On Wed, 04 Aug 2010 10:22:12 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>> >>>> [...] >>>> >>>>> <snip> >>>>> >>>>>> I found that 56k connections only work very locally. When I did data >>>>>> transfers across the pond a couple decades ago the most I could reliably >>>>>> work at was 4800bd, sometimes 1200bd was required. >>>>> That makes no sense. The connection rate only depends on your "last mile". >>>> This was in the days of point to point data transfer. Modules specs, >>>> manuscripts, et cetera. Some of those connections went over "singing >>>> wires" where the last mile could actually be more like 30 miles. You've >>>> seen them, where the wires basically keep the poles from falling over. >>>> Add in a crackling transatlantic connection with no SNR to write home about. >>> How did you get a cross-pond analog line at a time when there were 56K modems? >>> >> It wasn't a 56k modem. It was a 9600bd modem and later a 14.4k. But even >> at that the connection would immediately error out unless I forced it to >> start at 4800bd. It wouldn't have been any different with a 56k modem >> unless it couldn't ratchet down to 2400 and 1200 (then you wouldn't be >> able to connect). You can't beat Shannons theorem, when the channel is >> weak there is nothing you can do except throttling down. >> >> It depended a bit on the country. Germany-US would often hold 4800 >> through the whole session, but no more. For Germany-Canada it was >> sometimes better to start even lower so it wouldn't cut out on me. Same >> to Korea and places like that. But every reduction by a factor of two >> meant a doubling of the costs of the call. Also, it was really important >> to have a speaker run at least for the first 1/4 of the transmission. >> That is because phone costs per minute were high back then and sometimes >> it was smarter to cut it all loose after 5min and start over. Some >> connections would gradually deteriorate for some reason and then you had >> to try until you got one that didn't. After so many transmissions you >> could almost predict whether a connection would stick or not. >> >> We also split stuff up so partial reads would be useful and someone >> could piece it back together at the other end. Sometimes when I hear >> kids bemoan that the 5Mb/sec broadband at their parents' house is >> sluggish I wish they could experience that old modem stuff just once. >> >> If you had a >100k file and it wasn't super urgent it was cheaper to >> spool it onto a floppy and airmail it. > > Oldsters remember when bandwidth was expensive, like i "dimed up" and > downloaded the the packet drivers for early Ethernet cards from > Clarkson Uni to the Lost Angles area ar 2400 baud over a few nights, ^^^^^^^^ Pun intended? :-) > cost me about $100 long distance for a little less than a MB. Now > that would be a few seconds and included (and would dissapear) in my > monthly. Today, a sloppy webpage will eat up a MB or more, and an > overnight DL would be about 5 GB; over 5 thousand times the data > volume. Just about 20 years difference. In those cases I'd rather send them a SASE envelope, a blank diskette and $20 for the effoert to copy and the walk by the mail room. Then use the remaining $80 for a nice dinner with the wife. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
From: Paul Keinanen on 8 Aug 2010 10:48
On Sun, 08 Aug 2010 05:03:44 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell(a)earthlink.net> wrote: > >Joerg wrote: >> >> Out here the news is actualy not all that negative. But sometimes >> boring. For example, I really don't need to know where Chelsey Clinton >> got married. > > How about this news? A well known AM radio station lost all three >towers a few days ago. It was a well know country music station, with >its Wheeling Jamboree. Are you really saying that some radio broadcasting companies in the US are still using medium wave AM as their main distribution channel ?? |