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From: Linux Futurist. on 10 Dec 2008 10:38
TJ <TJ(a)invalid.invalid> wrote in news:ghoi8a$n8o$1(a)news.motzarella.org:

> Linux Futurist wrote:
>> I have been considering the following for some time now and I have
>> reached the irrevocable conclusion that the CLI is the past and GUI
>> is the future.
>>
>> If Linux is to compete with other OS's then GUI is the *only* way
>> forward. This *new reality* is dictated by the needs of those wishing
>> to migrate from their current OS to Linux.
>>
>> If the Linux community refuses to recognize this reality by not
>> offering these potential migrants the assistance they need in
>> learning how to use the GUI then Linux will wither and die.
>>
>> Any so called Linux guru who continues to cling to the past and
>> denounce the GUI will become extinct and irrelevant, assuming they
>> aren't already.
>
> Entirely too much cross-posting, guy. It just makes everybody angry,
> and is no way to advance your point.

But that is/was my point, to make EVERYBODY angry. See below for
explanation.

> But that doesn't make much difference to you, does it? Diplomacy
> certainly isn't your strong suit. (Perhaps that's because there's no
> really good GUI available for diplomacy.) Your whole post was designed
> to inflame to CLI proponents. It wasn't designed to convince them of
> the error of their ways, in any. It won't change anybody's mind to
> attack their beliefs - it'll just make them dig in deeper.

You are correct on all counts.

> That said, there could be more GUI-based help given out for newbies,
> without the inherent disdain that's expressed to those who don't wish
> to use the CLI. Newbies are bound to use the GUI before they turn to
> the CLI, because it's easier to learn and requires less human memory.

You are correct again on all counts.

> Even those who aren't newbies use the GUI more than the CLI. I've been
> using Linux for nearly seven years, so I've gone beyond newbie status,
> and I use the CLI only when there's no other choice. But that's just
> me, and what I'm comfortable with. I don't care what anybody else
> wants to use.

Nor should you.

> But to say that the GUI is the "ONLY" way forward ignores the inherent
> usefulness of the CLI. No matter how well a GUI is designed, or how
> much you make it do, the CLI will still be able to do more in the
> hands of a skilled user. In many cases, when it comes to somewhat
> obscure operations, the CLI will be easier to use than navigating your
> way through nests of menus to find the one little thing you want to
> change. The CLI isn't going away any time soon.
>
> The Future of Linux is a peaceful coexistence of CLI and GUI, where
> the user decides which to use according to his needs and comfort. It
> is NOT the exclusion of one or the other. And, more education in the
> use of both should be available.

The following is for many of you who have followed my thread:

My OP was carefully worded to incite as much controversy as possible, it
was in NO WAY a serious discussion. Except for the *fact* that newbies
DO get more shouts of RTFM or irrational attacks even when they ask
reasonable questions. In one respect that's their own fault for asking
questions on usenet instead of a moderated forum.

MY FINAL WARNING IN THIS THREAD TO NEWBIES: DON'T ASK YOUR QUESTIONS ON
USENET!!!

Now dear readers all good things must come to an end and this thread has
run it's course so I'm letting it die.

The End

???

--
Linux Futurist
From: TJ on 11 Dec 2008 09:32
Linux Futurist. wrote:
> TJ <TJ(a)invalid.invalid> wrote in news:ghoi8a$n8o$1(a)news.motzarella.org:
>
>> Linux Futurist wrote:
>>> I have been considering the following for some time now and I have
>>> reached the irrevocable conclusion that the CLI is the past and GUI
>>> is the future.
>>>
>>> If Linux is to compete with other OS's then GUI is the *only* way
>>> forward. This *new reality* is dictated by the needs of those wishing
>>> to migrate from their current OS to Linux.
>>>
>>> If the Linux community refuses to recognize this reality by not
>>> offering these potential migrants the assistance they need in
>>> learning how to use the GUI then Linux will wither and die.
>>>
>>> Any so called Linux guru who continues to cling to the past and
>>> denounce the GUI will become extinct and irrelevant, assuming they
>>> aren't already.
>> Entirely too much cross-posting, guy. It just makes everybody angry,
>> and is no way to advance your point.
>
> But that is/was my point, to make EVERYBODY angry. See below for
> explanation.
>
>> But that doesn't make much difference to you, does it? Diplomacy
>> certainly isn't your strong suit. (Perhaps that's because there's no
>> really good GUI available for diplomacy.) Your whole post was designed
>> to inflame to CLI proponents. It wasn't designed to convince them of
>> the error of their ways, in any. It won't change anybody's mind to
>> attack their beliefs - it'll just make them dig in deeper.
>
> You are correct on all counts.
>
>> That said, there could be more GUI-based help given out for newbies,
>> without the inherent disdain that's expressed to those who don't wish
>> to use the CLI. Newbies are bound to use the GUI before they turn to
>> the CLI, because it's easier to learn and requires less human memory.
>
> You are correct again on all counts.
>
>> Even those who aren't newbies use the GUI more than the CLI. I've been
>> using Linux for nearly seven years, so I've gone beyond newbie status,
>> and I use the CLI only when there's no other choice. But that's just
>> me, and what I'm comfortable with. I don't care what anybody else
>> wants to use.
>
> Nor should you.
>
>> But to say that the GUI is the "ONLY" way forward ignores the inherent
>> usefulness of the CLI. No matter how well a GUI is designed, or how
>> much you make it do, the CLI will still be able to do more in the
>> hands of a skilled user. In many cases, when it comes to somewhat
>> obscure operations, the CLI will be easier to use than navigating your
>> way through nests of menus to find the one little thing you want to
>> change. The CLI isn't going away any time soon.
>>
>> The Future of Linux is a peaceful coexistence of CLI and GUI, where
>> the user decides which to use according to his needs and comfort. It
>> is NOT the exclusion of one or the other. And, more education in the
>> use of both should be available.
>
> The following is for many of you who have followed my thread:
>
> My OP was carefully worded to incite as much controversy as possible, it
> was in NO WAY a serious discussion. Except for the *fact* that newbies
> DO get more shouts of RTFM or irrational attacks even when they ask
> reasonable questions. In one respect that's their own fault for asking
> questions on usenet instead of a moderated forum.
>
> MY FINAL WARNING IN THIS THREAD TO NEWBIES: DON'T ASK YOUR QUESTIONS ON
> USENET!!!
>
> Now dear readers all good things must come to an end and this thread has
> run it's course so I'm letting it die.
>
> The End
>
> ???
>
What a sad little man you are. Your writing style reminds me of a guy
who attacked Dan C. in another selection of newsgroups, trying to make
some nebulous point by "countering evil with evil." He didn't get
anywhere, and you haven't either. You could even BE him, for all I know.
I don't care enough to check the headers to find out.

You are much mistaken, you know. You didn't make "EVERYBODY" angry. I'm
not angry, and the last time I checked, I'm part of "EVERYBODY." And you
missed several Linux newsgroups, so your psychological experiment missed
being seen by "EVERYBODY" in the Linux Usenet community.

Usenet is as unforgiving as the Real World. Attempts to make it kinder
and gentler are doomed to failure, because that's the way it is with the
Real World, too. Newbies who aren't ready to face the Real World, who
need their hands held, who need to be shielded from opinions that differ
from theirs, who can't protect themselves from unpleasantness, should
indeed stay away from Usenet. Children of any age need such protection.

Grown-ups don't. And grown-ups are what Linux will need if it is to
progress. Grown-ups can defend themselves if need be, or know enough to
walk away if that's what's called for. Grown-ups know that there are
some folks in the Real World who are grumpy and irascible by nature, and
not to take anything those types say personally. Grown-ups respond to
adversity by getting better, not by crying and running away to safety.
Grown-ups are the true future of Linux, and the children you seek so
hard to protect must become grown-ups if that future is to develop.

So newbies, if you are still children, whatever your chronological ages
might be, please, go someplace safe until you grow up. If not, welcome
to the Real World.

TJ
From: Felmon on 11 Dec 2008 11:27
On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 09:31:46 -0600, Linux Futurist. quoth:

>
> IMO usenet is not a productive environment in which to peruse questions
> hence my warning to newbies (or anyone for that matter) wanting answers
> as quickly as possible with as little irrelevant noise as possible.
>
> When I say productive I mean in comparison to a moderated forum. In that
> environment discussions can be careful guided to produce the most
> relevant answers in the most efficient manner possible (but YMMV).

logically you are all over the place. is it 'not productive' or 'less
productive than forums'? different things.

in addition, usenet is less productive than it could be because of a*holes
who stir up pointless controversy.

Felmon

From: Moog on 11 Dec 2008 17:03
TJ illuminated alt.os.linux.ubuntu by typing:

<snip drivellage>
> This may come as a surprise to you, but I actually have a life.

Yes. Yes it does.

Why not try to use it in a more positive way?

HTH.

--
So I rang up British Telecom, I said "I want to report a nuisance
caller", he said "Not you again".
From: TJ on 11 Dec 2008 19:26
Moog wrote:
> TJ illuminated alt.os.linux.ubuntu by typing:
>
> <snip drivellage>
>> This may come as a surprise to you, but I actually have a life.
>
> Yes. Yes it does.
>
> Why not try to use it in a more positive way?
>
> HTH.
>

<Chuckle.> Funny guy. Maybe Leno can use you as a writer for his new show.
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