GR prediction for precession of perihelion of Mercury is not quite right
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From: Androcles on 2 Jul 2010 07:53 "OwlHoot" <ravensdean(a)googlemail.com> wrote in message news:2c3962a4-0f53-4925-9cdf-703af1b68ac7(a)a40g2000vbl.googlegroups.com... On Jun 26, 5:23 am, Koobee Wublee <koobee.wub...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Jun 25, 8:58 pm, Tom Roberts wrote: > > > > > Surfer wrote: > > > See: > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tests_of_general_relativity#Perihelion_p... > > > > Amount: arcsec/Julian century > > > 5603.24 Total predicted > > > 5599.7 Observed > > > -3.54 Discrepancy > > > > The discrepancy is larger than the observational error > > > Before one knows whether or not this is significant, one must compare > > the > > discrepancy to the errorbars. The above-referenced article does not do > > that, and > > does not include the errorbars. > > > So you must look up the errorbars in the literature before you can > > determine > > whether this is important or not. > > Not the errorbars again. What is the errorbar of the one due to other > solar bodies? They seem to be very big, no? <shrug> There's expected to be a slight discrepancy due to flattening of the Sun's core, on account of its quite rapid rotation. Since nobody yet knows the core's exact shape (although progress is being made by observations of surface vibrations), the same slight uncertainty is associated with the precession of Mercury's perihelion. Cheers John Ramsden =========================================== Oh no, Einstein's super accurate trusty slide rule calculated EXACTLY where Mercury should be and we've had another century of observations since then, with all prophecies within the 415 orbits * 360 degrees * 3600 arc seconds = 537840000 arc seconds and 43/537840000 * 100 = 7.9949e-6 %, the kind of accuracy one expects from a genius like Einstein.
From: PD on 2 Jul 2010 10:22 On Jul 2, 3:32 am, "k...(a)nventure.com" <k...(a)nventure.com> wrote: > > Who the hell, or what team observed this for exactly one century, > and did anyone actually verify Le Verrier's math? The *measured* half-life of U-235 is 704 million years. When you figure out how we can possibly know that despite not having been around for 704 million years, then you'll perhaps have a glimmer of understanding of what's going on in this case. > > Moreover, the Sun is not absolutely stationary within the Solar > System, because like all multiple body 'binary' systems, all the > masses move. The planets and comets obit, and the Sun jiggles > and 'is agitated' in the words of Isaac Newton. Did Le Verrier > even consider the minor mass planets, let alone the comets? > Additionally, the 'planet' Pluto was not yet discovered at the > time Le Verrier published his findings. > > So let's face it, the 43 arc seconds/century on which Einstein > based his whole equation is pretty darn shaky, and screw the > errorbars. Sorry, but the error bars tell you how shaky that number is. That's what the purpose of error bars is. What you are saying is that you don't have any idea how those error bars were arrived at.
From: J. Clarke on 2 Jul 2010 10:30 On 7/2/2010 4:32 AM, kado(a)nventure.com wrote: > On Jun 26, 8:43 pm, Koobee Wublee<koobee.wub...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> > snip >> >> Let's lay out the issue at hand ignoring the nonsense due to the >> quadruple moment of the sun. Using the number of significant digits >> presented, we should have a good idea on how tight the error bar is. >> >> Observed = 5,599.7 +/- 0.? (no error bar) >> Equinox = 5,028.00 +/- 0.04 (super accurate) >> Perturbation = 530 +/- ?0 (implying very sloppy) >> >> So, it all depends on the error bar from the contribute due to other >> planets. With this argument, it does not bode well for the said 43" >> for the Schwarzschild metric's influence, don't you think? > > I have always wondered how Joseph Le Verrier determined the > observed value of the advance of the perihelion of the obit > of Mercury to such precession that his mathematics of Newtonian > Mechanics results in an error of the tiny value 43 arc seconds > per century. He could not have observed this Natural Phenomenon > personally. > > Furthermore, the value of 43 arc seconds/century is the effect. > The accuracy of the 43 arc seconds is very dependent on the > causes, i.e., the accuracy of the so call the 'observed advance > of the perihelion of the orbit'/earth century, and Le Verrier's > math. > > Who the hell, or what team observed this for exactly one century, > and did anyone actually verify Le Verrier's math? Legions of astronomy students have verified the math. As for "who the hell or what team", many astronomers. Why do all observations have to be by the same person or team? And why does the measurement have to be over "exactly one century"? > Moreover, the Sun is not absolutely stationary within the Solar > System, because like all multiple body 'binary' systems, all the > masses move. The planets and comets obit, and the Sun jiggles > and 'is agitated' in the words of Isaac Newton. Did Le Verrier > even consider the minor mass planets, let alone the comets? > Additionally, the 'planet' Pluto was not yet discovered at the > time Le Verrier published his findings. If the cause of the anomaly in the precession of Mercury is Pluto and comets then why it is the _only_ planet that shows such an anomaly? You're assuming that the same guy who figured out from its effect on the other planets the position of the then unknown Neptune with such accuracy that the observational astronomers were able to find it within hours of starting the search was unable to account for such effects in calculating the orbit of Mercury. > So let's face it, the 43 arc seconds/century on which Einstein > based his whole equation is pretty darn shaky, and screw the > errorbars. Huh? What "whole equation" did Einstein base on observations of Mercury?
From: eric gisse on 2 Jul 2010 13:11 Jerry wrote: [...] > I am wondering what you would intend to do with this information > if I found it for you. Probably nothing? Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner. > > Jerry
From: eric gisse on 2 Jul 2010 13:13
OwlHoot wrote: > On Jun 26, 5:23 am, Koobee Wublee <koobee.wub...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> On Jun 25, 8:58 pm, Tom Roberts wrote: >> >> >> >> > Surfer wrote: >> > > See: >> > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tests_of_general_relativity#Perihelion_p... >> >> > > Amount: arcsec/Julian century >> > > 5603.24 Total predicted >> > > 5599.7 Observed >> > > -3.54 Discrepancy >> >> > > The discrepancy is larger than the observational error >> >> > Before one knows whether or not this is significant, one must compare >> > the discrepancy to the errorbars. The above-referenced article does not >> > do that, and does not include the errorbars. >> >> > So you must look up the errorbars in the literature before you can >> > determine whether this is important or not. >> >> Not the errorbars again. What is the errorbar of the one due to other >> solar bodies? They seem to be very big, no? <shrug> KW is stupid. That's all that really needs to be said after all these years. > > There's expected to be a slight discrepancy due to flattening > of the Sun's core, on account of its quite rapid rotation. > > Since nobody yet knows the core's exact shape (although progress > is being made by observations of surface vibrations), the same > slight uncertainty is associated with the precession of Mercury's > perihelion. The name for this is 'solar quadrupole moment'. A massive body with a quadrupole moment makes an orbiting body's orbit precess, which is a well known feature in classical mechanics. > > > Cheers > > John Ramsden |