How do you design these days?
in [Design]
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From: Phil Hobbs on 1 Jan 2010 11:28 On 1/1/2010 10:20 AM, Fred Abse wrote: > On Fri, 01 Jan 2010 00:49:11 +0000, Jan Panteltje wrote: > >> It is 'bison kit', or translated 'Bison Glue'. > > What is the difference between a buffalo and a bison? Like "What's the difference between a Stoic and a Cynic? Da stoic is what brings da baby, and da cynic is what you washes it in. Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal ElectroOptical Innovations 55 Orchard Rd Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 845-480-2058 hobbs at electrooptical dot net http://electrooptical.net
From: mook johnson on 1 Jan 2010 11:38 "RogerN" <regor(a)midwest.net> wrote in message news:ROudnXLvg9-Tm6HWnZ2dnUVZ_oidnZ2d(a)earthlink.com... > > When I was in school components fit on solderless breadboards and we made > circuits using breadboards, power supplies, meters and oscilloscopes. > Many of today's components don't appear to be breadboard friendly, so how > is it done today? > > Is circuit design software and simulation good enough to go straight to a > PC board? Or do you use surface mount to breadboard adapters? Do you > still use a soldering Iron to solder or paste solder and an oven? > > I'm wanting to tinker with some circuits but some chips I'm interested in > only comes in MSOP or other packages that look intimidating to attempt to > solder. > > Thanks! > > RogerN > I use express PCB and get protype boards for less than $100. The time savings is worth it. You can also make some miniboards from this stuff.
From: Joerg on 1 Jan 2010 11:49 John Larkin wrote: > On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 19:28:42 -0800 (PST), "miso(a)sushi.com" > <miso(a)sushi.com> wrote: > >> On Dec 31, 12:50 pm, Joerg <inva...(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >>> Phil Hobbs wrote: >>>> On 12/30/2009 9:20 PM, Joerg wrote: >>>>> RogerN wrote: >>>>>> When I was in school components fit on solderless breadboards and we >>>>>> made circuits using breadboards, power supplies, meters and >>>>>> oscilloscopes. Many of today's components don't appear to be >>>>>> breadboard friendly, so how is it done today? >>>>> I even used bare thumbtacks on plywood for solder posts back then. >>>>>> Is circuit design software and simulation good enough to go straight >>>>>> to a PC board? Or do you use surface mount to breadboard adapters? Do >>>>>> you still use a soldering Iron to solder or paste solder and an oven? >>>>> In the professional world (product design) we go straight from >>>>> simulation to schematic -> layout -> board fab -> assembly. No >>>>> breadboards. >>>>>> I'm wanting to tinker with some circuits but some chips I'm interested >>>>>> in only comes in MSOP or other packages that look intimidating to >>>>>> attempt to solder. >>>>> Well, for hobbyists or one-off designs there is help but not very cheap: >>>>> http://www.proto-advantage.com/store/images/PRODUCTS/PA0027_0.JPG >>>>> This is the variety they have but I don't know this shop, just meant as >>>>> an example: >>>>> http://www.proto-advantage.com/store/index.php?cPath=2200 >>>> _THE_ professional world? Joerg, Joerg, you've been holed up in that >>>> mountain lair of yours for too long. ;) >>> Now, now, we do have a modern feed store in this here town whar we're >>> gitten them alfalfa bales and all that, and they even use a computation >>> machine :-) >>> >>>> Simulate the parts that simulators get right, do the rote stuff by rote, >>>> but prototype the stuff you're not sure will work. It's amazing the >>>> amount of stuff you can learn in a short time from a dead-bug prototype. >>>> If you're just talking about laying out boards for circuit prototypes, >>>> then I agree--you might as well try a bit harder and get it right the >>>> first time. But trying out weird stuff, especially in mixed-technology >>>> systems, really needs prototypes. >>> Ok, I did build a breadboard for my first noise-critical fiber-optics >>> front end but that was more because the client really wanted that done. >>> I ended up not changing a thing on there and going straight to a >>> multi-channel layout. Since it has digital delay controls with SPI and >>> stuff it (almost) counts as mixed signal. >>> >>>> Besides, lots of my protos are actually small instruments that I build >>>> in half a day and then use for years. An example is the sub-Poissonian >>>> current source and LNA I built for my tunnel junction work--very >>>> specific, worked great for years, took a day all told to design and >>>> build. Good medicine. >>> One-off things I also often build on experimental board. I am not a >>> great friend of the dead-bug style, preferring Vector board with a >>> ground plane. That's harder to find these days so I stocked up. Many >>> things go into those little Pomona boxes that end up riding on the back >>> of a coax connector. All good medicine, but at least I can put a shiny >>> aluminum lid on it so the clients don't see the wire ball inside my probes. >>> >>> -- >>> Regards, Joerg >>> >>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/ >>> >>> "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. >>> Use another domain or send PM. >> Vector board is insanely priced. I buy it up at flea markets when I >> find good deals and nibble out small pieces for circuits to conserve >> it. I think if I had to pay real prices for vectorboard, I'd use the >> on-line PCB manufacturers. I dead bug too. >> > > Live bug is easier to visualize. And if you work on copperclad, you > can bend ungrounded pins out horizontally and solder the groudable > pins directly to the plane. > Also, you can bend all the pins up to achieve a living bug. Usually, and only once. I often take a snippet of thin wood, glue that down, glue the chip onto that and then solder all the pins that need GND to the copper. This avoids any pin bending. With wood it's still possible to swap the chip when you have fried it, not so easy with plastics. Plus gives me a wonderful excuse to eat a Haagen-Dasz bar with almond crunch on top :-) > Kapton tape is great, too, when working on copperclad. > Yup. The only thing I hate with copper clad is all the ugly fingerprints after hours of experimenting. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
From: Joerg on 1 Jan 2010 11:51 miso(a)sushi.com wrote: > On Dec 31, 12:50 pm, Joerg <inva...(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >> Phil Hobbs wrote: >>> On 12/30/2009 9:20 PM, Joerg wrote: >>>> RogerN wrote: >>>>> When I was in school components fit on solderless breadboards and we >>>>> made circuits using breadboards, power supplies, meters and >>>>> oscilloscopes. Many of today's components don't appear to be >>>>> breadboard friendly, so how is it done today? >>>> I even used bare thumbtacks on plywood for solder posts back then. >>>>> Is circuit design software and simulation good enough to go straight >>>>> to a PC board? Or do you use surface mount to breadboard adapters? Do >>>>> you still use a soldering Iron to solder or paste solder and an oven? >>>> In the professional world (product design) we go straight from >>>> simulation to schematic -> layout -> board fab -> assembly. No >>>> breadboards. >>>>> I'm wanting to tinker with some circuits but some chips I'm interested >>>>> in only comes in MSOP or other packages that look intimidating to >>>>> attempt to solder. >>>> Well, for hobbyists or one-off designs there is help but not very cheap: >>>> http://www.proto-advantage.com/store/images/PRODUCTS/PA0027_0.JPG >>>> This is the variety they have but I don't know this shop, just meant as >>>> an example: >>>> http://www.proto-advantage.com/store/index.php?cPath=2200 >>> _THE_ professional world? Joerg, Joerg, you've been holed up in that >>> mountain lair of yours for too long. ;) >> Now, now, we do have a modern feed store in this here town whar we're >> gitten them alfalfa bales and all that, and they even use a computation >> machine :-) >> >>> Simulate the parts that simulators get right, do the rote stuff by rote, >>> but prototype the stuff you're not sure will work. It's amazing the >>> amount of stuff you can learn in a short time from a dead-bug prototype. >>> If you're just talking about laying out boards for circuit prototypes, >>> then I agree--you might as well try a bit harder and get it right the >>> first time. But trying out weird stuff, especially in mixed-technology >>> systems, really needs prototypes. >> Ok, I did build a breadboard for my first noise-critical fiber-optics >> front end but that was more because the client really wanted that done. >> I ended up not changing a thing on there and going straight to a >> multi-channel layout. Since it has digital delay controls with SPI and >> stuff it (almost) counts as mixed signal. >> >>> Besides, lots of my protos are actually small instruments that I build >>> in half a day and then use for years. An example is the sub-Poissonian >>> current source and LNA I built for my tunnel junction work--very >>> specific, worked great for years, took a day all told to design and >>> build. Good medicine. >> One-off things I also often build on experimental board. I am not a >> great friend of the dead-bug style, preferring Vector board with a >> ground plane. That's harder to find these days so I stocked up. Many >> things go into those little Pomona boxes that end up riding on the back >> of a coax connector. All good medicine, but at least I can put a shiny >> aluminum lid on it so the clients don't see the wire ball inside my probes. >> >> -- >> Regards, Joerg >> >> http://www.analogconsultants.com/ >> >> "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. >> Use another domain or send PM. > > Vector board is insanely priced. ... It is. However, the $30 for an over-priced board are really down in the noise for my kind of projects. > ... I buy it up at flea markets when I > find good deals and nibble out small pieces for circuits to conserve > it. I think if I had to pay real prices for vectorboard, I'd use the > on-line PCB manufacturers. I dead bug too. > Wish we had such flea markets up here near Sacramento. But it's mostly a city of bureaucrats :-( > Funny nobody mentioned using a board grinder. Well, if Harborfreight had them for cheap ... -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
From: Bill Sloman on 1 Jan 2010 11:58
On Jan 1, 6:00 am, Spehro Pefhany <speffS...(a)interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote: > On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 09:10:22 -0700, the renowned Don Lancaster > > > > > > <d...(a)tinaja.com> wrote: > >John Larkin wrote: > >> On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 14:01:44 -0000, "markp" <map.nos...(a)f2s.com> > >> wrote: > > >>> "RogerN" <re...(a)midwest.net> wrote in message > >>>news:ROudnXLvg9-Tm6HWnZ2dnUVZ_oidnZ2d(a)earthlink.com... > >>>> When I was in school components fit on solderless breadboards and we made > >>>> circuits using breadboards, power supplies, meters and oscilloscopes.. > >>>> Many of today's components don't appear to be breadboard friendly, so how > >>>> is it done today? > > >>>> Is circuit design software and simulation good enough to go straight to a > >>>> PC board? Or do you use surface mount to breadboard adapters? Do you > >>>> still use a soldering Iron to solder or paste solder and an oven? > > >>>> I'm wanting to tinker with some circuits but some chips I'm interested in > >>>> only comes in MSOP or other packages that look intimidating to attempt to > >>>> solder. > > >>>> Thanks! > > >>>> RogerN > > >>> I tend to design a PCB with CAD software then have prototype PCBs made. > >>> There are several companies out there who do 'pooling', i.e. they amalgamate > >>> many designs onto one PCB, that way you end up only paying a small fraction > >>> of the tooling cost of the PCB. Some companies can handle 6 layer boards > >>> with this process. Example in the UK is PCB Snap from Spirit Circuits > >>> (www.spiritcircuits.com). > > >>> This can be quite cost effectve for producing protptypes that are as close > >>> to the final product as practicable. > > >> Why not go for the real thing, first time? If you get it right, you > >> can sell it. > > >> John > > >It is NEVER right the first time. > > Keep firing people who have that attitude and it eventually will be! Perhaps. But if the survivors are sufficiently nervous of getting fired that they triple-check every aspect of the circuit before they commit to a printed circuit layout, you may find that you get to the final layout more slowly than you would have if you'd gone through a throw-away prototype layout along the way. -- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen |