How do you design these days?
in [Design]
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From: Joerg on 31 Dec 2009 16:13 krw wrote: > On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 09:10:22 -0700, Don Lancaster <don(a)tinaja.com> > wrote: > >> John Larkin wrote: >>> On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 14:01:44 -0000, "markp" <map.nospam(a)f2s.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> "RogerN" <regor(a)midwest.net> wrote in message >>>> news:ROudnXLvg9-Tm6HWnZ2dnUVZ_oidnZ2d(a)earthlink.com... >>>>> When I was in school components fit on solderless breadboards and we made >>>>> circuits using breadboards, power supplies, meters and oscilloscopes. >>>>> Many of today's components don't appear to be breadboard friendly, so how >>>>> is it done today? >>>>> >>>>> Is circuit design software and simulation good enough to go straight to a >>>>> PC board? Or do you use surface mount to breadboard adapters? Do you >>>>> still use a soldering Iron to solder or paste solder and an oven? >>>>> >>>>> I'm wanting to tinker with some circuits but some chips I'm interested in >>>>> only comes in MSOP or other packages that look intimidating to attempt to >>>>> solder. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks! >>>>> >>>>> RogerN >>>>> >>>>> >>>> I tend to design a PCB with CAD software then have prototype PCBs made. >>>> There are several companies out there who do 'pooling', i.e. they amalgamate >>>> many designs onto one PCB, that way you end up only paying a small fraction >>>> of the tooling cost of the PCB. Some companies can handle 6 layer boards >>>> with this process. Example in the UK is PCB Snap from Spirit Circuits >>>> (www.spiritcircuits.com). >>>> >>>> This can be quite cost effectve for producing protptypes that are as close >>>> to the final product as practicable. >>> Why not go for the real thing, first time? If you get it right, you >>> can sell it. >>> >>> John >>> >> It is NEVER right the first time. > > Some people evidently get close enough. If you don't try to get it > right on the first time you never will, though. The problem is when > management expects to get it right on the first try, ... Very common situation when you are a consultant. New client, first article should have shipped a couple months ago but it still doesn't work. Everyone shaking in their boots. _Then_ your phone rings, agreement is signed same day, you call off any and all birthday parties and whatnot and you've got exactly one shot to get it right. > ...then demands it on the second. About the fifth... They'd have me over the barrel :-) -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
From: Joel Koltner on 31 Dec 2009 16:23 That's a good response Mark, although I think that John's point about the likelihood of hardware needing multiple board spins having a lot to do with the attitude of the designers is very significant and can lead to quicker deliveries and low costs. Additionally, you need someone decent in management to minimize the number of times some guy in marketing wants you to move an LED left 1" and change it from green to blue. The other thing that I don't imagine is necessarily obvious to people who don't read the group regularly is the different areas people here are working in: AIUI, John is doing very-high-speed time-domain stuff (along with a healthy dose of FPGAs and CPUs to manage it all), Joerg does a whole bunch of different analog things (and a few microcontroller bits) but generally below 1GHz, and others are doing very fancy digital boards. The difficulty in getting a board 100% correct on the first go-around -- at least for me -- climbs noticeably as one switches from "almost all digital" to "almost all analog" and from the MHz range to the GHz range. And of course then you throw in all the extra bits above and beyond "does it just work?" that Joerg deals with -- EMI/EMC, agency approvals, etc. ---Joel
From: Joerg on 31 Dec 2009 16:46 John Larkin wrote: > On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 14:01:44 -0000, "markp" <map.nospam(a)f2s.com> > wrote: > >> "RogerN" <regor(a)midwest.net> wrote in message >> news:ROudnXLvg9-Tm6HWnZ2dnUVZ_oidnZ2d(a)earthlink.com... >>> When I was in school components fit on solderless breadboards and we made >>> circuits using breadboards, power supplies, meters and oscilloscopes. >>> Many of today's components don't appear to be breadboard friendly, so how >>> is it done today? >>> >>> Is circuit design software and simulation good enough to go straight to a >>> PC board? Or do you use surface mount to breadboard adapters? Do you >>> still use a soldering Iron to solder or paste solder and an oven? >>> >>> I'm wanting to tinker with some circuits but some chips I'm interested in >>> only comes in MSOP or other packages that look intimidating to attempt to >>> solder. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> RogerN >>> >>> >> I tend to design a PCB with CAD software then have prototype PCBs made. >> There are several companies out there who do 'pooling', i.e. they amalgamate >> many designs onto one PCB, that way you end up only paying a small fraction >> of the tooling cost of the PCB. Some companies can handle 6 layer boards >> with this process. Example in the UK is PCB Snap from Spirit Circuits >> (www.spiritcircuits.com). >> >> This can be quite cost effectve for producing protptypes that are as close >> to the final product as practicable. > > Why not go for the real thing, first time? If you get it right, you > can sell it. > Did it on a recent project: Client wanted five units to kick the tires. The difference between buying 5 bare boards and 50 boards was miniscule. So now they can make 45 more unit and the PCBs will be almost free, they just have to pay for parts, stuffing and testing. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
From: Joerg on 31 Dec 2009 16:47 Don Lancaster wrote: > John Larkin wrote: >> On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 14:01:44 -0000, "markp" <map.nospam(a)f2s.com> >> wrote: >> >>> "RogerN" <regor(a)midwest.net> wrote in message >>> news:ROudnXLvg9-Tm6HWnZ2dnUVZ_oidnZ2d(a)earthlink.com... >>>> When I was in school components fit on solderless breadboards and we >>>> made circuits using breadboards, power supplies, meters and >>>> oscilloscopes. Many of today's components don't appear to be >>>> breadboard friendly, so how is it done today? >>>> >>>> Is circuit design software and simulation good enough to go straight >>>> to a PC board? Or do you use surface mount to breadboard adapters? >>>> Do you still use a soldering Iron to solder or paste solder and an >>>> oven? >>>> >>>> I'm wanting to tinker with some circuits but some chips I'm >>>> interested in only comes in MSOP or other packages that look >>>> intimidating to attempt to solder. >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>>> >>>> RogerN >>>> >>>> >>> I tend to design a PCB with CAD software then have prototype PCBs >>> made. There are several companies out there who do 'pooling', i.e. >>> they amalgamate many designs onto one PCB, that way you end up only >>> paying a small fraction of the tooling cost of the PCB. Some >>> companies can handle 6 layer boards with this process. Example in the >>> UK is PCB Snap from Spirit Circuits (www.spiritcircuits.com). >>> >>> This can be quite cost effectve for producing protptypes that are as >>> close to the final product as practicable. >> >> Why not go for the real thing, first time? If you get it right, you >> can sell it. >> >> John >> > > It is NEVER right the first time. > It is, too :-) -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
From: Nico Coesel on 31 Dec 2009 16:55
Raveninghorde <raveninghorde(a)invalid> wrote: >On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 06:25:56 -0800 (PST), MooseFET ><kensmith(a)rahul.net> wrote: > >>On Dec 30, 6:01�pm, "RogerN" <re...(a)midwest.net> wrote: >>> When I was in school components fit on solderless breadboards and we made >>> circuits using breadboards, power supplies, meters and oscilloscopes. �Many >>> of today's components don't appear to be breadboard friendly, so how is it >>> done today? >>> >>> Is circuit design software and simulation good enough to go straight to a PC >>> board? �Or do you use surface mount to breadboard adapters? �Do you still >>> use a soldering Iron to solder or paste solder and an oven? >>> >>> I'm wanting to tinker with some circuits but some chips I'm interested in >>> only comes in MSOP or other packages that look intimidating to attempt to >>> solder. >> >>I use ExpressPCB to make boards for parts of the design. Things like >>power supplies are made as a PCB with connectors that are wired to the >>other boards. I use 1206 parts and put in some extra parts and layout >>such that cuts and jumps are easy(ish) to do. >> >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> RogerN > >Think. Read data sheets. Think. CAD. Make on production line. > >Pcb design rarely takes longer than a lash up on strip board or >whatever and always works better. > >Very occasionally I have lashed up a small part of a design but I >almost always regret the waste of time. The truth lies somewhere in between. I use whatever seems most handy given the situation. For analog I use simulation a lot but it always gets prototyped. SMD components either end up as a dead bug on prototyping board or a small dedicated PCB. RF and power means having a small PCB made. Sometimes I like to try things like a new microcontroller. I usually make universal (=a load of via's to connect wires to) boards out of such a project so they can serve as a kickstart for prototyping other projects. -- Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply indicates you are not using the right tools... nico(a)nctdevpuntnl (punt=.) -------------------------------------------------------------- |