How do you design these days?
in [Design]
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From: Joerg on 31 Dec 2009 20:22 Jan Panteltje wrote: > On a sunny day (Thu, 31 Dec 2009 16:22:20 -0800) it happened Joerg > <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote in <7q4ti4Fd5nU1(a)mid.individual.net>: > >>> Normally I use flat cable: >>> ftp://panteltje.com/pub/z80/sound_card_bottom.jpg >> >> What's that ugly big silvery thing on the right? >> >> >>> ftp://panteltje.com/pub/z80/soundcard_top.jpg >> >> Looks like the cat peed over the speaker :-) > > It is 'bison kit', or translated 'Bison Glue'. > Lots of it to keep that speaker fixed, had to re-glue it a couple of times. > Maybe Bison Kit is made of Bison pee, I really do not know what is in it, > but it is a very good glue for general purpose application. It's too long ago but AFAIR we used something like Araldit in the Netherlands back in my days. The spelling could be wrong but it held on very well. It didn't leave such nasty residue unless you let it ooze all over the place. Ok, it wasn't exactly the Netherlands but the province of Zuid Limburg which you guys considered a foreign country. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
From: John Larkin on 31 Dec 2009 21:13 On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 22:30:03 GMT, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje(a)yahoo.com> wrote: >On a sunny day (31 Dec 2009 14:12:03 -0500) it happened DJ Delorie ><dj(a)delorie.com> wrote in <xnws039cvw.fsf(a)delorie.com>: > >> >>My way is to use a solderless breadboard, but build up sub-circuits on >>home-brew PCBs. So I've got a USB adapter, MCU adapter, ethernet >>socket with discretes adapter, power supply boards, etc. Homebrew can >>whip up a whole panel of breadboard adapters for SOT TSSOP CSP etc in >>little time and at little cost. The breadboard is for interconnecting >>the modules, adding pullup/pulldowns, etc. Once the circuits are >>explored this way, it goes to a PCB fab as a single final board (no >>production runs for me, just a hobby) and if it doesn't work I hack it >>until it does. >> >>Here's an example of that process (scroll down to the breadboard >>pics): http://www.delorie.com/electronics/alarmclock/ >>http://www.delorie.com/electronics/alarmclock/20070723-proto.jpg One >>project, nine adapter boards (ten when you include theftp://panteltje.com/pub/z80/graphics_card_top.jpg second OLED >>connector), one breadboard. > >Real man use no PeeSeeBee: > ftp://panteltje.com/pub/z80/graphics_card_top.jpg > ftp://panteltje.com/pub/z80/graphics_card_bottom.jpg >:-) > ACK! We were going out for beer and burgers, but you just killed my appetite. This is more like it. The bottom board is my one-off signal conditioner/relay driver. And I built a spare. ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Auto_plate.jpg John
From: MooseFET on 31 Dec 2009 22:14 On Dec 31, 4:17 pm, Joerg <inva...(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: > MooseFET wrote: > > On Dec 31, 1:55 pm, n...(a)puntnl.niks (Nico Coesel) wrote: > >> Raveninghorde <raveninghorde(a)invalid> wrote: > >>> On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 06:25:56 -0800 (PST), MooseFET > >>> <kensm...(a)rahul.net> wrote: > >>>> On Dec 30, 6:01 pm, "RogerN" <re...(a)midwest.net> wrote: > >>>>> When I was in school components fit on solderless breadboards and we made > >>>>> circuits using breadboards, power supplies, meters and oscilloscopes. Many > >>>>> of today's components don't appear to be breadboard friendly, so how is it > >>>>> done today? > >>>>> Is circuit design software and simulation good enough to go straight to a PC > >>>>> board? Or do you use surface mount to breadboard adapters? Do you still > >>>>> use a soldering Iron to solder or paste solder and an oven? > >>>>> I'm wanting to tinker with some circuits but some chips I'm interested in > >>>>> only comes in MSOP or other packages that look intimidating to attempt to > >>>>> solder. > >>>> I use ExpressPCB to make boards for parts of the design. Things like > >>>> power supplies are made as a PCB with connectors that are wired to the > >>>> other boards. I use 1206 parts and put in some extra parts and layout > >>>> such that cuts and jumps are easy(ish) to do. > >>>>> Thanks! > >>>>> RogerN > >>> Think. Read data sheets. Think. CAD. Make on production line. > >>> Pcb design rarely takes longer than a lash up on strip board or > >>> whatever and always works better. > >>> Very occasionally I have lashed up a small part of a design but I > >>> almost always regret the waste of time. > >> The truth lies somewhere in between. I use whatever seems most handy > >> given the situation. For analog I use simulation a lot but it always > >> gets prototyped. SMD components either end up as a dead bug on > >> prototyping board or a small dedicated PCB. RF and power means having > >> a small PCB made. Sometimes I like to try things like a new > >> microcontroller. I usually make universal (=a load of via's to connect > >> wires to) boards out of such a project so they can serve as a > >> kickstart for prototyping other projects. > > > It is very hard to hook a spice model to the real transducers. > > Making a spice model of the transducer isn't so easy when it is > > pushing the limits of physics and you have to assume that the physics > > guy got it exactly right when he did his equations. > > Yup. It is very hard to model backing materials, acoustic matching > layers, crosstalk and all that. This either needs to be characterized > via some other software or measured. Audio: It is doubly troublesome when you are designing for things that need to work over a range of pressures. The mechanical characteristics of materials change with stress. Resonant frequencies tend to move about and some things make noise for unexpected reasons. Electromagnetic: The electrical properties of soil are all over the map. Check out Bruce Candy's patent on how to reject magnetic soils in a metal detector some time. It actually works (mostly kind of) > > One attempt in doing it mathematically ended with a first generation > Pentium processor going tchk ... *PHUT*. > > [...] > > -- > Regards, Joerg > > http://www.analogconsultants.com/ > > "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. > Use another domain or send PM.
From: miso on 31 Dec 2009 22:28 On Dec 31, 12:50 pm, Joerg <inva...(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: > Phil Hobbs wrote: > > On 12/30/2009 9:20 PM, Joerg wrote: > >> RogerN wrote: > >>> When I was in school components fit on solderless breadboards and we > >>> made circuits using breadboards, power supplies, meters and > >>> oscilloscopes. Many of today's components don't appear to be > >>> breadboard friendly, so how is it done today? > > >> I even used bare thumbtacks on plywood for solder posts back then. > > >>> Is circuit design software and simulation good enough to go straight > >>> to a PC board? Or do you use surface mount to breadboard adapters? Do > >>> you still use a soldering Iron to solder or paste solder and an oven? > > >> In the professional world (product design) we go straight from > >> simulation to schematic -> layout -> board fab -> assembly. No > >> breadboards. > > >>> I'm wanting to tinker with some circuits but some chips I'm interested > >>> in only comes in MSOP or other packages that look intimidating to > >>> attempt to solder. > > >> Well, for hobbyists or one-off designs there is help but not very cheap: > > >>http://www.proto-advantage.com/store/images/PRODUCTS/PA0027_0.JPG > > >> This is the variety they have but I don't know this shop, just meant as > >> an example: > > >>http://www.proto-advantage.com/store/index.php?cPath=2200 > > > _THE_ professional world? Joerg, Joerg, you've been holed up in that > > mountain lair of yours for too long. ;) > > Now, now, we do have a modern feed store in this here town whar we're > gitten them alfalfa bales and all that, and they even use a computation > machine :-) > > > Simulate the parts that simulators get right, do the rote stuff by rote, > > but prototype the stuff you're not sure will work. It's amazing the > > amount of stuff you can learn in a short time from a dead-bug prototype.. > > > If you're just talking about laying out boards for circuit prototypes, > > then I agree--you might as well try a bit harder and get it right the > > first time. But trying out weird stuff, especially in mixed-technology > > systems, really needs prototypes. > > Ok, I did build a breadboard for my first noise-critical fiber-optics > front end but that was more because the client really wanted that done. > I ended up not changing a thing on there and going straight to a > multi-channel layout. Since it has digital delay controls with SPI and > stuff it (almost) counts as mixed signal. > > > Besides, lots of my protos are actually small instruments that I build > > in half a day and then use for years. An example is the sub-Poissonian > > current source and LNA I built for my tunnel junction work--very > > specific, worked great for years, took a day all told to design and > > build. Good medicine. > > One-off things I also often build on experimental board. I am not a > great friend of the dead-bug style, preferring Vector board with a > ground plane. That's harder to find these days so I stocked up. Many > things go into those little Pomona boxes that end up riding on the back > of a coax connector. All good medicine, but at least I can put a shiny > aluminum lid on it so the clients don't see the wire ball inside my probes. > > -- > Regards, Joerg > > http://www.analogconsultants.com/ > > "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. > Use another domain or send PM. Vector board is insanely priced. I buy it up at flea markets when I find good deals and nibble out small pieces for circuits to conserve it. I think if I had to pay real prices for vectorboard, I'd use the on-line PCB manufacturers. I dead bug too. Funny nobody mentioned using a board grinder.
From: John Larkin on 31 Dec 2009 22:43
On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 19:28:42 -0800 (PST), "miso(a)sushi.com" <miso(a)sushi.com> wrote: >On Dec 31, 12:50�pm, Joerg <inva...(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >> Phil Hobbs wrote: >> > On 12/30/2009 9:20 PM, Joerg wrote: >> >> RogerN wrote: >> >>> When I was in school components fit on solderless breadboards and we >> >>> made circuits using breadboards, power supplies, meters and >> >>> oscilloscopes. Many of today's components don't appear to be >> >>> breadboard friendly, so how is it done today? >> >> >> I even used bare thumbtacks on plywood for solder posts back then. >> >> >>> Is circuit design software and simulation good enough to go straight >> >>> to a PC board? Or do you use surface mount to breadboard adapters? Do >> >>> you still use a soldering Iron to solder or paste solder and an oven? >> >> >> In the professional world (product design) we go straight from >> >> simulation to schematic -> layout -> board fab -> assembly. No >> >> breadboards. >> >> >>> I'm wanting to tinker with some circuits but some chips I'm interested >> >>> in only comes in MSOP or other packages that look intimidating to >> >>> attempt to solder. >> >> >> Well, for hobbyists or one-off designs there is help but not very cheap: >> >> >>http://www.proto-advantage.com/store/images/PRODUCTS/PA0027_0.JPG >> >> >> This is the variety they have but I don't know this shop, just meant as >> >> an example: >> >> >>http://www.proto-advantage.com/store/index.php?cPath=2200 >> >> > _THE_ professional world? �Joerg, Joerg, you've been holed up in that >> > mountain lair of yours for too long. �;) >> >> Now, now, we do have a modern feed store in this here town whar we're >> gitten them alfalfa bales and all that, and they even use a computation >> machine :-) >> >> > Simulate the parts that simulators get right, do the rote stuff by rote, >> > but prototype the stuff you're not sure will work. �It's amazing the >> > amount of stuff you can learn in a short time from a dead-bug prototype. >> >> > If you're just talking about laying out boards for circuit prototypes, >> > then I agree--you might as well try a bit harder and get it right the >> > first time. �But trying out weird stuff, especially in mixed-technology >> > systems, really needs prototypes. >> >> Ok, I did build a breadboard for my first noise-critical fiber-optics >> front end but that was more because the client really wanted that done. >> I ended up not changing a thing on there and going straight to a >> multi-channel layout. Since it has digital delay controls with SPI and >> stuff it (almost) counts as mixed signal. >> >> > Besides, lots of my protos are actually small instruments that I build >> > in half a day and then use for years. � An example is the sub-Poissonian >> > current source and LNA I built for my tunnel junction work--very >> > specific, worked great for years, took a day all told to design and >> > build. �Good medicine. >> >> One-off things I also often build on experimental board. I am not a >> great friend of the dead-bug style, preferring Vector board with a >> ground plane. That's harder to find these days so I stocked up. Many >> things go into those little Pomona boxes that end up riding on the back >> of a coax connector. All good medicine, but at least I can put a shiny >> aluminum lid on it so the clients don't see the wire ball inside my probes. >> >> -- >> Regards, Joerg >> >> http://www.analogconsultants.com/ >> >> "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. >> Use another domain or send PM. > >Vector board is insanely priced. I buy it up at flea markets when I >find good deals and nibble out small pieces for circuits to conserve >it. I think if I had to pay real prices for vectorboard, I'd use the >on-line PCB manufacturers. I dead bug too. > Live bug is easier to visualize. And if you work on copperclad, you can bend ungrounded pins out horizontally and solder the groudable pins directly to the plane. Kapton tape is great, too, when working on copperclad. John |