Iczelion's tutorials revisited.
in [ASM]
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From: Frank Kotler on 27 Aug 2005 19:56 hutch-- wrote: .... > I will continue to defend an old friend with or without your approval > as he posted his work for everyone to USE on his own site at no cost. I really wish that you, or someone else who considers Iczelion a friend (he'd recognize your email address as "not-spam"), would get a statement as to what he intended by "use". I would *guess* that he intended to allow translations to another syntax, but I don't know the guy - maybe that's *not* what he wants... > The only person to get permission was Betov but no-one else asked. Do you know this for sure? AFAIK, it was Yeoh who did the "Nasm translation" (and just the examples, not the text, AFAIK). I think someone else has updated them to use the "nagoa+.inc" file. I don't kow if they asked permission or not... > You are wrong in your assumption that you have te right to cash in on > someones name without their approval. So we should just refer to "MASM32", and not "Hutch's MASM32"??? .... > This is something like "The thoughts of Chairman Mao" ported from > Chinese to street idiom American English. "So like dude, a journey of like a gazillion miles begins with like a single step." - the mind boggles! Best, Frank
From: randyhyde@earthlink.net on 27 Aug 2005 21:13 hutch-- wrote: > I make exactly the same warning as I have made before, the only > tutorials that were written by Iczelion are available from his web > site. > > Now to put the claptrap of dependence by the MASM32 Project on > Iczelions tutorials, here is the direct quotation from www.masm32.com. I believe the correct phrase was "crown jewels", not dependence. There *is* a difference you know. And to claim that Iczelion Tutorials have *not* been one of the most famous components of MASM32 and one of the bigger draws to the MASM32 package is ignoring reality and insulting your friend Iczelion. > > ==================================== > MASM32 assumes that the programmers who will use it already have > experience in 32 bit Windows API programming using compilers and have > done some work in assembler. It is not designed as a beginners package > and it does not have the support for beginners to learn the basic > concepts about assembler. It is recommended that beginners to > programming learns a compiler like C/C++ Pascal/Delphi or PowerBASIC > before they start on an assembler as this will produce the necessary > experience to deal with concepts like registers, data sizes or > registers, data types, assembler mnemonics, system API calls and > different calling conventions. The learner can always come back to > assembler once they are familiar and confortable with a compiler. > ==================================== > > The project was launched without Iczelions tutorials, it has never been > aimed at beginner programmers, There are different levels of beginners, you know. Iczelion's tuts may not have been aimed at beginning *assembly* programmers, but they are clearly aimed at beginning *win32 assembly* programmers. > its largest source of new users is from > experienced programmers and it had its own body of example code before > the tutorials were included and which Iczelion wrote specifically for > the project. Experienced programmers who've never done Win32 programming in assembly before. IOW, they are beginners in that sense. > > I will continue to defend an old friend with or without your approval > as he posted his work for everyone to USE on his own site at no cost. > The only person to get permission was Betov but no-one else asked. Re-read the copyright notice. *I* certainly interpret it to mean that translation to other assembler's syntax is perfect valid. And as *you* are not the copyright holder, I'll be more than happy to ignore any statements you make about Iczelion's intent. If people are violating his intent, *HE* needs to complain about it. He is the only one who can do this, being the copyright owner. Until he assigns the copyright to you, you cannot speak for him. When he does, *then* you can defend the copyright all you want. > > You are wrong in your assumption that you have te right to cash in on > someones name without their approval. His copyright notice gives explicit rights to USE his code for non-commercial purposes. It says nothing about leaving the code in MASM syntax. And the last time I checked, his copyright notice *explicitly* states that his name is to be left attached to the product. So not only do we have his approval to use his name, the copyright demands it. > His work was posted for everyone > to use but there is no follow on that by using his work, anyone has the > right to cash in on his name. Iczelion has retired and the integrity of > his work should be respected. Yes, by always recognizing the source of his work. Perhaps you're not familiar with the copyright laws, but the copyright laws do not allow you to translate code to some other language and claim it as your own. Hence, in following the copyright notice Iczelion posted, it's important to leave his name attached to the project. But all that is irrelvant. *YOU* don't speak for Iczelion. Friend or otherwise. I'm also quite sure he would be *very* dismayed at your recent behavior. It is disappointing many people who've long considered you a reasonable guy. > > =================================== > I fail to see why all this upsets you. Are you seeing a huge decline in > MASM32 usage these days and someone feel threatened by the fact that > one of MASM32's "crown jewels" is so widely available for other > assemblers? If this is the case, I'd concentrate on creating a *new* > set of tutorials rather than trying to go into protectionist mode with > respect to an ancient (in CS terms) set of tutorials. Keeping the new > stuff coming is a *much* better way to protect your turf than trying to > prevent people from using material that's been around for better than > half a decade and has already been translated to a half-dozen other > assemblers. That toothpaste is out of the tube, and crying about it > isn't going to change things. > > And let me offer you one piece of advice with your new tutorials -- if > you only want them to be used under MASM, you should explicitly state > that in the license agreement. > =================================== > > I suggest that you are not in a position to make these statements, as > posted above, the project was never pointed at beginners and the web > site makes that clear. Why do you keep coming back to this "beginners" nonsense? First of all, where did I ever say "beginning assembly programmers?" This is a complete straw horse. You're learning from Rene quite well -- change the subject when you've got nothing else to stand on. > Nor is the defence of Iczelion territorial as > there is no real need and to make te point again, his work in its > original form is available from his own web site, not mine. Well, last time I check the tutorials were part of the MASM32 download. So you *are* distributing it. And if it's not in it's original form, then aren't you just as guilty of the transgressions you're accusing others of? > > Whether you undestand it or not, the real strength of the masm32 > project was its extendable architecture and it has intentionally been > kept as neutral as possible so that other build formats and other IDEs > can predictable use it. Maybe. But that doesn't change the fact that the Iczelion Tutorials have been a popular component of the MASM32 package and a big draw. > > I don't write many tutorials, there are a few simple ones in the > project but I mainly write example code and also include examples that > other people have written for the project. The entire project is > copyright (c) and while nothing stops anyone from using the example > code in COBOL or PASCAL or whatever else they like, the contents are > protected by copyright. And do you allow them to translate that example code to other assemblers? And if so, why do you care if they do the same with Iczelion's? Cheers, Randy Hyde
From: f0dder on 27 Aug 2005 21:20 <randyhyde(a)earthlink.net> wrote: > Why do you keep coming back to this "beginners" nonsense? First of all, > where did I ever say "beginning assembly programmers?" This is a > complete straw horse. You're learning from Rene quite well -- change > the subject when you've got nothing else to stand on. Don't give Betov credit where it isn't due - hutch has always been doing this, but he used to be okay at doing it in subtle ways. He should have been into politics rather than programming. Fortunately, during the last couple of years, he's been slipping up on a number of occasions, and more people are starting to realize what he's really like.
From: hutch-- on 27 Aug 2005 23:05 Same old waffle from someone who wants to cash in on Iczelion's name without his approval. At least Betov did ask permission and was given it. =================================== I believe the correct phrase was "crown jewels", not dependence. There *is* a difference you know. And to claim that Iczelion Tutorials have *not* been one of the most famous components of MASM32 and one of the bigger draws to the MASM32 package is ignoring reality and insulting your friend Iczelion. =================================== Shame Iczelion did not see it this way, he rewrote a subset of his tutorials in masm32 format as his contribution to the project that he helped to design the architecture for. While I am certain that Randall Hde was around in late 1997, I am also certain that he was not involved in resurecting assembler from the dead with MASM. If I remember corectly, AOA was still current and HLA had not been released by then. =================================== Re-read the copyright notice. *I* certainly interpret it to mean that translation to other assembler's syntax is perfect valid. And as *you* are not the copyright holder, =================================== No I am not but neither are you yet you choose to exercise that right because Iczelion has retired. Where you have clear examples of someone like Betov actually bothering to ask permission to port the examples, what suddenly makes anyone else different ? The answer is simple, they want to cash in on Iczelion's name because he has retired. Now if Betov suddenly had a brain transplant and ported/rewrote HLA and represented it as the work of Randall Hyde, I would make the same complaint as I make of anyone else using Iczelion's name. In both instances I would issue the warning, DON'T SETTLE FOR A PHONY, GET THE ORIGINAL WORK BY THE ORIGINAL AUTHOR. I only treat you the same way and it would be a fair complaint, just as it is with anyone trying to cash in on Iczelion's name. On a like it or lump it basis, I will defend an old friend against anyone trying to cash in on his name, he as retired and his work should be respected. Regards, hutch at movsd dot com
From: Guga on 27 Aug 2005 23:49
Well...I may not be able to speak for René, but....Tks F0dder. Randall wrote: "You're learning from Rene quite well -- change the subject when you've got nothing else to stand on" Pointing your finger on rené, to try to desviate the attention won´t help you know :) Randall, attacking René to desviate the attention is something that even if you do with some often, won´t help Steve here. Your phrase is unreasanoble, the next thing you wil claim is that Steve is on the RosAsm clan just to bring René here to change the subject to him. Randall, the only thing that is happening is that Steve strongly thinks that he is defending Iczelion, for a question of friendship as he said. Do you think that changing the subject to René will make Steve change his mind ? Steve is a grown man. Although i don´t agree with his last actitudes i´ll defend his write to say it. He may be confused about what Iczelion did concerning the permissions to port to other assemblers, or for the teaching purposes, but his reasons are good. I mean, it is reasonable to defend a friend, right ? He may not speak for Iczelion, but either he like or not, it won´t change the fact that people who have a different view will continue to port the iczelion tutorials to their assemblers. And on the same time, he will have the feelings that he may need to defend Iczelion work to prevent this "unathorized" portings (As he say). Randall...let me ask you...Did you ported Iczelion tutorials to HLA ? I´m asking this because if you are afraid that Steve suddenly forbid that the Iczelion tutorials released under masm be ported or used to other programs (Including HLA), and as long as you don´t agree with him, why don´t you translate Iczelion tutorials to HLA by yourself if you want that people learning your HLA language from Iczelion tutorials ? I mean, if you are worried that people don´t use HLA, or if you are concerned in lost users because it won´t have a certain set of examples from masm and Steve´s works, why don´t you translate it, since you don´t agree with him ? Steve, i think that you may not understood Iczelion purposes and permissions, read his faq again. http://spiff.tripnet.se/~iczelion/faq.html Specially on the item he says "Needed tools". The related tools he described and also for what says the copyright notice grants permission for usage, and, by consequence, translated to the related tools, like TASM, NASM, MASM. I agree that defending a friend is a honorable thing, but, i just think that you are a little confused about the goals, purposes and permitions of Iczelion tutorials. Take a bottle of beer, relax ;)...you may be overreacting on simple issues. Best Regards, Guga |