Iczelion's tutorials revisited.
in [ASM]
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From: hutch-- on 27 Aug 2005 08:27 I thought this one as died a natural death but I just picked up this comment from Randall Hyde that indicates the level of confusion he suffered with my original warning about people trying to cash in on Iczelion's name. ======================================== I am especially disheartened by his attacks on people who've translated the Iczelion tutorials to other assemblers. While I can understand that the Iczelion tutorials have been one of the "Crown Jewels" of the MASM32 package (in which Hutch has an obvious vested interest in promoting), his comments concerning these translations pretty much tells me that he is *not* so much interested in people learning assembly language as he is in having them support his package and do things his way. And extremely Betovian attitude that I would never have expected out of him. Assembler wars aside, anyone learning assembly using *any* assembler is a *good* thing. Given that MASM is definitely the king of the hill, and is likely to remain so forever, it is hard to understand why Hutch would feel threatened by these other translations. Cheers, Randy Hyde ======================================== Most people who have been around in the assembler market for ay length of time know that Iczelion was a personal friend of mine and we worked together designing the fundamental architecture of the MASM32 Project and his direct contribution to the project was a subset of his tutorials which he personally wrote for the project. I will more than happily defend an old friend who wrote his work and published it for anyone to USE for any programming requirement they may have in any language they like and to make the point, his complete original work is available from his own web site which is maintained by another old friend of his, it is not under my cotrol and never has been. What I have complained about is the notion of ayone cashing in on Iczelion's name as there has only ever been one set of Iczelion's tutorials and those are the ones he wrote himself. Differing from many others, Betov actually did get permission to port the tutorials to SPASM and while I owe Betov an apology for burning his ear here, I certainly don't owe one to anyone else who have tried to cash in on Iczelion's name. Betov should hold his breath waiting (WaitForSingleObject) for the apology because I more than owe Betov some noise in response to his own. :) Iczelion's tutorials are available at his web site for all to use for any language they like but I will make the same warning, BEWARE OF PHONIES, Iczelion only ever wrote in MASM and he never ported his work to any other assembler or compiler. When someone else ports his work to some other compiler or assembler, the result IS someone elses work and should not be called Iczelion's tutorials. Regards, hutch at movsd dot com
From: f0dder on 27 Aug 2005 09:42 hutch-- wrote: > Iczelion only ever wrote in MASM If I'm not mistaken he worked professionally in VB as well as ASP...
From: randyhyde@earthlink.net on 27 Aug 2005 16:56 hutch-- wrote: > > Most people who have been around in the assembler market for ay length > of time know that Iczelion was a personal friend of mine and we worked > together designing the fundamental architecture of the MASM32 Project > and his direct contribution to the project was a subset of his > tutorials which he personally wrote for the project. No one is questioning that. > > I will more than happily defend an old friend Whether he wants you to or not. I do believe that is the point here. > who wrote his work and > published it for anyone to USE for any programming requirement they may > have in any language they like and to make the point, his complete > original work is available from his own web site which is maintained by > another old friend of his, it is not under my cotrol and never has > been. So why are you complaining that people have translated it to other assemblers? > > What I have complained about is the notion of ayone cashing in on > Iczelion's name as there has only ever been one set of Iczelion's > tutorials and those are the ones he wrote himself. Everyone I've seen has called their translations "The Iczelion Tutorials". Granted, they are invoking Iczelion's name here and I guess you could call that "cashing in on his name." But using the author's name in this manner is ethically consistent with the way things are done in this field. Why do you complain about this? > > Differing from many others, Betov actually did get permission to port > the tutorials to SPASM and while I owe Betov an apology for burning his > ear here, I certainly don't owe one to anyone else who have tried to > cash in on Iczelion's name. Iczelion published those tutorials to be used. Do you have a problem with people using them? And if they do use them, what would you suggest they do, *not* use Iczelion's name when they distribute the translated forms? That would imply plagiarism, which was your other accusation. > Betov should hold his breath waiting > (WaitForSingleObject) for the apology because I more than owe Betov > some noise in response to his own. :) Well, at least you admit you were wrong. That's a bit better than you're achieving with the "polling vs. blocking" nonsense. > > Iczelion's tutorials are available at his web site for all to use for > any language they like but I will make the same warning, BEWARE OF > PHONIES, Iczelion only ever wrote in MASM and he never ported his work > to any other assembler or compiler. When someone else ports his work to > some other compiler or assembler, the result IS someone elses work and > should not be called Iczelion's tutorials. IOW, you're requesting that people *plagiarize* Iczelion's work and claim it as their own by *not* listing Izcelion's name? This is totally inconsistent with your past arguments where you claimed everyone was plagiarizing his work. Again, why do you continue to speak for Izcelion? You don't have that right, friend or no friend. Contact him and have him post a single message explaining his feelings. The fact that he gave permission to Rene to translate the things pretty much tells me that he's okay with this process and he probably appreciates all the credit that has been given him for his tutorials. I fail to see why all this upsets you. Are you seeing a huge decline in MASM32 usage these days and someone feel threatened by the fact that one of MASM32's "crown jewels" is so widely available for other assemblers? If this is the case, I'd concentrate on creating a *new* set of tutorials rather than trying to go into protectionist mode with respect to an ancient (in CS terms) set of tutorials. Keeping the new stuff coming is a *much* better way to protect your turf than trying to prevent people from using material that's been around for better than half a decade and has already been translated to a half-dozen other assemblers. That toothpaste is out of the tube, and crying about it isn't going to change things. And let me offer you one piece of advice with your new tutorials -- if you only want them to be used under MASM, you should explicitly state that in the license agreement. Cheers, Randy Hyde
From: randyhyde@earthlink.net on 27 Aug 2005 16:59 hutch-- wrote: > > He was also fluent in Microsoft C, TASM and highly experienced in NT > networking as well as win32ASP and vb but his tutorials were only ever > written in MASM. Apparently, they've have been written with other assemblers, else we wouldn't be having this discussion :-). Perhaps *he* only used MASM when writing them, but he's clearly given permission to at least one other party to translate them, so it's also clear that he's not fundamentally opposed to this process, as you are. I wonder if Iczelion posted a message here saying that the translations are okay if you'd turn around and attack him, as you have so many of your other supporters recently? Cheers, Randy Hyde
From: hutch-- on 27 Aug 2005 19:22
I make exactly the same warning as I have made before, the only tutorials that were written by Iczelion are available from his web site. Now to put the claptrap of dependence by the MASM32 Project on Iczelions tutorials, here is the direct quotation from www.masm32.com. ==================================== MASM32 assumes that the programmers who will use it already have experience in 32 bit Windows API programming using compilers and have done some work in assembler. It is not designed as a beginners package and it does not have the support for beginners to learn the basic concepts about assembler. It is recommended that beginners to programming learns a compiler like C/C++ Pascal/Delphi or PowerBASIC before they start on an assembler as this will produce the necessary experience to deal with concepts like registers, data sizes or registers, data types, assembler mnemonics, system API calls and different calling conventions. The learner can always come back to assembler once they are familiar and confortable with a compiler. ==================================== The project was launched without Iczelions tutorials, it has never been aimed at beginner programmers, its largest source of new users is from experienced programmers and it had its own body of example code before the tutorials were included and which Iczelion wrote specifically for the project. I will continue to defend an old friend with or without your approval as he posted his work for everyone to USE on his own site at no cost. The only person to get permission was Betov but no-one else asked. You are wrong in your assumption that you have te right to cash in on someones name without their approval. His work was posted for everyone to use but there is no follow on that by using his work, anyone has the right to cash in on his name. Iczelion has retired and the integrity of his work should be respected. This is something like "The thoughts of Chairman Mao" ported from Chinese to street idiom American English. It may in some sense ape Chairman Mao but by no stretch of the imagination should it be attributed to him. =================================== I fail to see why all this upsets you. Are you seeing a huge decline in MASM32 usage these days and someone feel threatened by the fact that one of MASM32's "crown jewels" is so widely available for other assemblers? If this is the case, I'd concentrate on creating a *new* set of tutorials rather than trying to go into protectionist mode with respect to an ancient (in CS terms) set of tutorials. Keeping the new stuff coming is a *much* better way to protect your turf than trying to prevent people from using material that's been around for better than half a decade and has already been translated to a half-dozen other assemblers. That toothpaste is out of the tube, and crying about it isn't going to change things. And let me offer you one piece of advice with your new tutorials -- if you only want them to be used under MASM, you should explicitly state that in the license agreement. =================================== I suggest that you are not in a position to make these statements, as posted above, the project was never pointed at beginners and the web site makes that clear. Nor is the defence of Iczelion territorial as there is no real need and to make te point again, his work in its original form is available from his own web site, not mine. Whether you undestand it or not, the real strength of the masm32 project was its extendable architecture and it has intentionally been kept as neutral as possible so that other build formats and other IDEs can predictable use it. I don't write many tutorials, there are a few simple ones in the project but I mainly write example code and also include examples that other people have written for the project. The entire project is copyright (c) and while nothing stops anyone from using the example code in COBOL or PASCAL or whatever else they like, the contents are protected by copyright. Regards, hutch at movsd dot com |