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From: Jim Thompson on 10 Jul 2010 13:16 On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 09:00:46 -0700, John Larkin <jjlarkin(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 03:59:03 -0700, >"JosephKK"<quiettechblue(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > >>On Fri, 09 Jul 2010 07:59:23 -0700, John Larkin >><jjlarkin(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >> >>>On Fri, 09 Jul 2010 05:02:27 -0700, >>>"JosephKK"<quiettechblue(a)yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >>>>On Wed, 07 Jul 2010 19:44:14 -0700, John Larkin >>>><jjlarkin(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>>On Wed, 07 Jul 2010 19:26:10 -0700, >>>>>"JosephKK"<quiettechblue(a)yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On Wed, 07 Jul 2010 10:39:10 -0700, John Larkin >>>>>><jjlarkin(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On 7 Jul 2010 09:38:56 -0700, Winfield Hill >>>>>>><Winfield_member(a)newsguy.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Jim Thompson wrote... >>>>>>>>> John Larkin wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Adrian Jansen wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>>>>>>[snip] >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the definition of "depends" :-) >>>>>>>>>>>> "Charge" IS conserved. So if you transfer Q from C1 to C2 >>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> If you conserve energy, then you must have >>>>>>>>>>> C1*V1^2 = C2*V2^2 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Right. If you dump all the energy from one charged cap into >>>>>>>>>> another, discharged, cap of a different value, and do it >>>>>>>>>> efficiently, charge is not conserved. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> John says, "...charge is not conserved." >>>>>>>>> Newbies are invited to Google on "conservation of charge". >>>>>>>>> (AND run the math problem I previously posted.) >>>>>>>>> John is so full of it I'd bet his eyes are brown ;-) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Unfortunately, Adrian Jansen mis-states the results as well :-( >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I haven't been following this thread, but I have a comment. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The operative phrase must be, "and do it efficiently." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This is easy to do, with a dc-dc converter for example, or a >>>>>>>> mosfet switch and an inductor. In these cases it's easy to >>>>>>>> manipulate E1 and E2, C1*V1^2 = C2*V2^2. Forget about charge. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Exactly. To say "Charge is always conserved" is absurd. It is >>>>>>>conserved in some situations, not in others. The context must be >>>>>>>stated exactly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Charge two identical caps to the same voltage, then connect them in >>>>>>>parallel, but with polarities flipped. ALL the charge vanishes. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>On the other hand, energy is always conserved. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>John >>>>>> >>>>>>Well let's consider this test case you just described. There was energy >>>>>>stored in each capacitor before closing the switch. There is none >>>>>>afterwards. Where did it go? How did it get there? >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> >>>>> >>>>>Heat, light, e/m radiation, sound, maybe some chemical changes in the >>>>>switch material. >>>>> >>>>>The capacitors also lost a little bit of mass. Actually, that's where >>>>>the energy came from. >>>> >>>>But i asked where it went to, and HOW it got there. >>>>> >>>>>John >>>>> >>>> >>>>Trained speculation and NO information on the _how_ let alone the _why_. >>>>Or colloquially, "hand waving". >>> >>>Your question was unclear. Are you asking where the energy came from >>>to initially charge the caps, or where the energy went at the instant >>>of discharge? I answered the latter. >>> >>>If your question was the former, there's no need to answer. Charged >>>caps was an assumption as an initial condition. >>> >>>Please state your question more clearly. >>> >>>John >> >>After closing the switch [beginning at the closure of the switch] to >>discharge the caps was indeed very clear. >> >>Just to help clarify, you may assume trivial switching losses (or not), >>then continue with a clear explanation showing reasonable causation. Or >>with (some) math if you prefer. >> >>The questions still are: >>Where did the energy go? You mumbled something. > > >You closed a contact between two capacitors. A calculable amount of >energy was lost. There was a spark, there was some noise, a nearby >radio made a tic noise, maybe the room temp rose a bit. If you want to >know exactly how all that happened, ask a physicist. I'm just a >circuit designer. > >John You keep evading analyzing YOUR circuit with INDUCTOR. Where did the CHARGE go that you state wasn't conserved. John Larkin, You're a fake and a coward. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | Obama isn't going to raise your taxes...it's Bush' fault: Not re- newing the Bush tax cuts will increase the bottom tier rate by 50%
From: m II on 10 Jul 2010 13:27 John Fields wrote: > So, in the real world, when the charge on the caps equalizes, the > magnetic field around the choke starts to decay and, when it does, > sucks charge out of one cap and forces it into the other, back and > forth, forever, if the system was perfect. That makes sense. I saw only the two capacitors mentioned in the post I was replying to. I strongly suspected there had to be more than just two capacitors in a loop. Thank you. mike
From: John Larkin on 10 Jul 2010 13:48 On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 07:47:02 -0500, John Fields <jfields(a)austininstruments.com> wrote: > >So, in the real world, when the charge on the caps equalizes, the >magnetic field around the choke starts to decay and, when it does, >sucks charge out of one cap and forces it into the other, back and >forth, forever, if the system was perfect. > > Geez, when I said that you got all upset. John
From: Jim Thompson on 10 Jul 2010 13:58 On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 10:48:56 -0700, John Larkin <jjlarkin(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 07:47:02 -0500, John Fields ><jfields(a)austininstruments.com> wrote: > > >> >>So, in the real world, when the charge on the caps equalizes, the >>magnetic field around the choke starts to decay and, when it does, >>sucks charge out of one cap and forces it into the other, back and >>forth, forever, if the system was perfect. >> >> > >Geez, when I said that you got all upset. > >John Forever? So? Charge IS conserved ?:-) ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | Obama isn't going to raise your taxes...it's Bush' fault: Not re- newing the Bush tax cuts will increase the bottom tier rate by 50%
From: Tim Williams on 10 Jul 2010 15:46
"John Fields" <jfields(a)austininstruments.com> wrote in message news:db4h369te6qiff7u6btpfb2aa2rjqd415c(a)4ax.com... >>Hint: bottle 2 is at -40C. >> >>Liquified gas is a bad example. > > --- > OK, then, air. You don't have the step nonlinearity of a phase transition, but it's a nonideal gas, and if this process occurs at any rate, you have PV=nRT to worry about, too. Similar problem. In this case, you need to guarantee the system is adiabatic for lossless oscillation. If the temperature changes (e.g., isothermal), then the extra energy disappears and you again get an excellent demonstration of conservation of charge (matter). An acoustic resonance would be reasonable to make adiabatic, but this also misses the point of an "in your hands, ordinary speed" example. Why not just use the old water analogy? It actually works. Regular water is slippery enough to slosh from one bucket to the next. In fact, you can do it with a U pipe, who needs buckets. Or how about a spring and mass system. Same damn diff eq's. Tim -- Deep Friar: a very philosophical monk. Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms |