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From: AM on 8 Jul 2010 15:20 On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 11:33:17 -0700, Robert Baer <robertbaer(a)localnet.com> wrote: > Slightly under infinite.. Optical switch.
From: John Fields on 8 Jul 2010 15:56 On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 12:09:46 -0700, John Larkin <jjlarkin(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 11:33:17 -0700, Robert Baer ><robertbaer(a)localnet.com> wrote: > >>John Fields wrote: >>> On Wed, 07 Jul 2010 17:54:26 -0700, John Larkin >>> <jjlarkin(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On Wed, 07 Jul 2010 18:57:11 -0500, John Fields >>>> <jfields(a)austininstruments.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Wed, 07 Jul 2010 13:00:12 -0700, Jim Thompson >>>>> <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon(a)On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Larkin vaguely started his thread with no mention of an inductor >>>>>> whatsoever, then added the inductor and claimed "sloshing" forever. >>>> I said that certain posts were untrue. Which they were. >>>> >>>>> --- >>>>> Yeah, well, Larkin claims a lot of things are absolutely true which >>>>> break down around zero and infinity. >>>> Cite? >>> >>> --- >>> Well, the one that always brings a grin to my chops is: "Latching >>> relays have infinite gain." >>> >>> There are others, but they slip my mind and it's just not worth the >>> effort to find them. >>> --- >>> >>>>>> What-a-pile of BS... >>>>>> use real switches and real inductors and real >>>>>> capacitors. >>>>> --- >>>>> Indeed. >>>> It helps to understand ideal circuits before you consider real >>>> circuits. The ideals are the limiting cases. You CAN transfer charge >>>> between equal value caps without loss of charge, and you can more >>>> generally transfer energy between caps without loss; just use an >>>> inductor. >>>> >>>> For those who dislike theory, Spice will slosh charge around between >>>> two caps for millions of cycles. Try it. >>> --- .. .. .. --- >>> I included it as the series resistance of the choke and, as reported >>> back by LTspice, once the charged cap is connected to the LC, the >>> circuit starts ringing, and after about 20ms (to be generous) decays >>> to essentially zero. >>> >>> Thus we have a decaying 20ms period populated by 46�s wide cycles, for >>> a total of about 435 cycles, a far cry from your claimed "millions of >>> cycles". > >What happens at the 436th cycle? Does the waveform suddenly flatline? --- What does the noise look like out there? Does it swamp out the oscillations? >> Well, "Latching relays have infinite gain" just ain't true, or even >>close. >> Large possible "gain" only. >> X minimal power to change state (use minimal amount for greatest >>"gain") and the contacts have a rather limited voltage and current >>handling capability. >> So, say about 100mW to switch states, and the contacts at (say) 200V >>max (but not more than 350V) and roughly 100mA at that voltage gives >>power switching / control in the region of 20W for a "gain" of 200. >> Slightly under infinite.. > >But the load current can continue to flow for years, and you only >energized the coil for milliseconds. Calculate the power gain averaged >over an hour. Then do a day. Then a month. See the pattern? --- Yeah, sure, the more you talk the deeper the bullshit gets. The only way your latching relay could exhibit infinite gain is if it took zero power to move the armature. Period.
From: Jim Thompson on 8 Jul 2010 17:09 On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 09:59:30 -0700, John Larkin <jjlarkin(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 09:20:25 -0700, AM ><thisthatandtheother(a)beherenow.org> wrote: > >>On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 08:43:26 -0700, John Larkin >><jjlarkin(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >> >>> >>>How in the world could you post anything that wrong? If you actually >>>ran it, and accepted the results, well, there's nothing polite I can >>>say. >> >> He posted the wrong file, dindgledorf. A mere button press error. >> >>Grow up. > >Did you look at the file he DID post? > > >But hey, this little thread has been valuable. I got to thinking about >ringing LC circuits and I think I may have stumbled onto the best >digital delay generator architecture yet. I'll have to brainstorm this >with my guys and see if it's practical. > >So, thanks to all. > >John Except it's probably a technique I've been using for years. Post what you think you've "discovered", then I'll post a schematic of mine from MANY years ago ;-) ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | Obama isn't going to raise your taxes...it's Bush' fault: Not re- newing the Bush tax cuts will increase the bottom tier rate by 50%
From: Jim Thompson on 8 Jul 2010 17:11 On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 10:34:27 -0700, John Larkin <jjlarkin(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >On Wed, 07 Jul 2010 18:12:34 -0700, AM ><thisthatandtheother(a)beherenow.org> wrote: > >>On Wed, 07 Jul 2010 17:54:26 -0700, John Larkin >><jjlarkin(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >> >>>It helps to understand ideal circuits before you consider real >>>circuits. The ideals are the limiting cases. You CAN transfer charge >>>between equal value caps without loss of charge, and you can more >>>generally transfer energy between caps without loss; just use an >>>inductor. >> >> >> Why then does it not work with a full and empty battery? >> >> What is the final voltage the battery pair will be at after >>the same such "transfer". >> >> Also, in both cases, how do you propose to do it without inrush damage >>to the empty cap/battery and outflow damage to the full cap/battery? >> >> There are losses, because the cap has terminations that are not ideal >>in nature. There will also be damage sites along the contact face for >>the cap plate-to-terminal_interface interface. :-) >> >> You cannot do it with ideal caps because the charge current would jump >>to infinity. >> >> There MUST be resistance in the circuit to limit the charge current. > >Totally wrong. The current through the inductor is a sine wave and is >predictable and finite. If you had an infinite current in the >inductor, it would be storing infinite energy, and there's only a >finite amount of energy avalable at T=0. > >Pitiful guesswork. > >John Yep, Always Wrong can be counted on to be always wrong. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | Obama isn't going to raise your taxes...it's Bush' fault: Not re- newing the Bush tax cuts will increase the bottom tier rate by 50%
From: John Larkin on 8 Jul 2010 17:34
On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 14:56:00 -0500, John Fields <jfields(a)austininstruments.com> wrote: >On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 12:09:46 -0700, John Larkin ><jjlarkin(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: > >>On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 11:33:17 -0700, Robert Baer >><robertbaer(a)localnet.com> wrote: >> >>>John Fields wrote: >>>> On Wed, 07 Jul 2010 17:54:26 -0700, John Larkin >>>> <jjlarkin(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Wed, 07 Jul 2010 18:57:11 -0500, John Fields >>>>> <jfields(a)austininstruments.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, 07 Jul 2010 13:00:12 -0700, Jim Thompson >>>>>> <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon(a)On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Larkin vaguely started his thread with no mention of an inductor >>>>>>> whatsoever, then added the inductor and claimed "sloshing" forever. >>>>> I said that certain posts were untrue. Which they were. >>>>> >>>>>> --- >>>>>> Yeah, well, Larkin claims a lot of things are absolutely true which >>>>>> break down around zero and infinity. >>>>> Cite? >>>> >>>> --- >>>> Well, the one that always brings a grin to my chops is: "Latching >>>> relays have infinite gain." >>>> >>>> There are others, but they slip my mind and it's just not worth the >>>> effort to find them. >>>> --- >>>> >>>>>>> What-a-pile of BS... >>>>>>> use real switches and real inductors and real >>>>>>> capacitors. >>>>>> --- >>>>>> Indeed. >>>>> It helps to understand ideal circuits before you consider real >>>>> circuits. The ideals are the limiting cases. You CAN transfer charge >>>>> between equal value caps without loss of charge, and you can more >>>>> generally transfer energy between caps without loss; just use an >>>>> inductor. >>>>> >>>>> For those who dislike theory, Spice will slosh charge around between >>>>> two caps for millions of cycles. Try it. >>>> >--- >. >. >. >--- >>>> I included it as the series resistance of the choke and, as reported >>>> back by LTspice, once the charged cap is connected to the LC, the >>>> circuit starts ringing, and after about 20ms (to be generous) decays >>>> to essentially zero. >>>> >>>> Thus we have a decaying 20ms period populated by 46�s wide cycles, for >>>> a total of about 435 cycles, a far cry from your claimed "millions of >>>> cycles". >> >>What happens at the 436th cycle? Does the waveform suddenly flatline? > >--- >What does the noise look like out there? Tell us, what sort of noise does your Spice sim show at cycle 436? > >Does it swamp out the oscillations? If Q=200, and you started with, say, 10 volts on C1, after 435 cycles you should still have many millivolts of signal. Check the sim for exact values. That's hardly in the noise, especially Spice noise. But sure, a lossy L will make the sine wave die out. No surprise. But note that each half-cycle transferred nearly all the energy and charge between the two caps, not the 50% charge as some people have claimed. > > >>> Well, "Latching relays have infinite gain" just ain't true, or even >>>close. >>> Large possible "gain" only. >>> X minimal power to change state (use minimal amount for greatest >>>"gain") and the contacts have a rather limited voltage and current >>>handling capability. >>> So, say about 100mW to switch states, and the contacts at (say) 200V >>>max (but not more than 350V) and roughly 100mA at that voltage gives >>>power switching / control in the region of 20W for a "gain" of 200. >>> Slightly under infinite.. >> >>But the load current can continue to flow for years, and you only >>energized the coil for milliseconds. Calculate the power gain averaged >>over an hour. Then do a day. Then a month. See the pattern? > >--- >Yeah, sure, the more you talk the deeper the bullshit gets. > >The only way your latching relay could exhibit infinite gain is if it >took zero power to move the armature. Period. Do my examples. What's the upper limit on gain? John |