Is Debian a fraud ?
in [General Linux]
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From: Robert Heller on 18 Feb 2010 12:23 At Thu, 18 Feb 2010 14:47:55 +0000 (UTC) Roger Blake <rogblake(a)iname.invalid> wrote: > > On 2010-02-17, The Natural Philosopher <tnp(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: > > Odd. My main reason to go broadband was to REDUCE the cost of internet.,. > > We have unlimited local calling, so $7.00/month dialup access is about as > cheap as internet access gets. Occasionally I get calls from companies > trying to sell broadband. I tell them what I'm paying now for internet > access and that if they can meet that price I will consider their service. > (There is little benefit to broadband for me since I work primarily in text > mode from a Unix/Linux shell.) > > There is a nationwide dialup infrastructure still in place in the > U.S., and it's certainly not being maintained just for my benefit. > I have to assume that there are still enough dialup users to make > it worthwhile keeping all those modem racks humming. With 56K tech, there are NO modem racks anymore. It is all done with digital connections to virtual exchanges. Only the 'end users' (i.e. you and me) who have actual 'modems' connected to an analog phone line (Oh, whatever is left of FidoNet that still uses dialup connections). Dialup ISPs just rent a set of phone numbers on a set of virtual exchanges, and provide an authentification server. The virtual exchanges include the [hardware] logic of the modems and the PPP protocol and connect directly to a router to the Internet. It all lives in the heart of the 'beast' (the phone company, eg Verizon). The ISPs even get to pay the long distance charges so you and I can get 'local' access numbers, since the virtual exchange hardware is in some distant city (like Springfield or Boston for me). What is keeping those *virtual* modem racks humming is likes of Verizon. Verizon *won't* upgrade the copper, *won't* install FIOS, and *won't* install DSLAMS. Some of us have NO CHOISE but to use dialup. For me, dialup is *effectively* $70+/month: $60+ for the phone (goes to Verizon), plus $10 for Internet (goes to LocalNet). I *really* should have a dedicated phone line (about $30/month), but I would probably still need the base $60/month phone line because of the silly local/long distance charge nastyness -- my 'local' calling area (as defined by Verizon) does NOT include where I make most of my 'local' calls (as I consider them). I do know of people who do have a dedicated phone line for Internet access, and thus are effectively paying $40/month for (crappy) dialup internet access. Considering *only* the ISP's share of one's dialup access is not realistic: dialup access does not work well if you don't have landline phone service. Analog landline phone service is actually much more expensive than most VOIP services. And in much of rural America, *Cell Phone* service is spotty or non-existent. This is especially true in places like Western Mass: with hills and valleys with lots of trees, there are lots and lots of dead zones. Replacing one's landline with a cell phone is not an option for most people. > -- Robert Heller -- 978-544-6933 Deepwoods Software -- Download the Model Railroad System http://www.deepsoft.com/ -- Binaries for Linux and MS-Windows heller(a)deepsoft.com -- http://www.deepsoft.com/ModelRailroadSystem/
From: John Hasler on 18 Feb 2010 13:34 Robert Heller writes: > For me, dialup is *effectively* $70+/month: $60+ for the phone (goes > to Verizon), plus $10 for Internet (goes to LocalNet). I *really* > should have a dedicated phone line (about $30/month), but I would > probably still need the base $60/month phone line because of the silly > local/long distance charge nastyness -- my 'local' calling area (as > defined by Verizon) does NOT include where I make most of my 'local' > calls (as I consider them). We pay about $90 for landline + unlimited long-distance + 1.5Mb DSL. That would drop if we went back to dialup but not much and as we need the landline for business use our connect time would be limited. -- John Hasler jhasler(a)newsguy.com Dancing Horse Hill Elmwood, WI USA
From: Roger Blake on 18 Feb 2010 14:32 On 2010-02-18, Robert Heller <heller(a)deepsoft.com> wrote: > With 56K tech, there are NO modem racks anymore. It is all done with That is pretty much irrelevant to the point that there is sufficient demand for dialup to keep the service going. (The actual hardware implementation on the server end doesn't matter.) > What is keeping those *virtual* modem racks humming is likes of > Verizon. Verizon *won't* upgrade the copper, *won't* install FIOS, and We do have FIOS in my area but it is too expensive. We ran the numbers when Verizon called us with their sales pitch, and maintaining a traditional land line plus dialup is still cheaper. > phone service. Analog landline phone service is actually much more > expensive than most VOIP services. And also less reliable. That is to be expected as analog phone service has had over 100 years of development and engineering go into it. I know several people who switched to VOIP and then went back to analog service due to reliability issues. But even if that were not the case, getting say a broadband cable connection plus VOIP is still going to be more expensive than our landline + dialup. -- Roger Blake (Change "invalid" to "com" for email. Google Groups killfiled due to spam.) "Obama dozed while people froze."
From: Robert Heller on 18 Feb 2010 17:14 At Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:32:17 +0000 (UTC) Roger Blake <rogblake(a)iname.invalid> wrote: > > On 2010-02-18, Robert Heller <heller(a)deepsoft.com> wrote: > > With 56K tech, there are NO modem racks anymore. It is all done with > > That is pretty much irrelevant to the point that there is sufficient > demand for dialup to keep the service going. (The actual hardware > implementation on the server end doesn't matter.) > > > What is keeping those *virtual* modem racks humming is likes of > > Verizon. Verizon *won't* upgrade the copper, *won't* install FIOS, and > > We do have FIOS in my area but it is too expensive. We ran the numbers > when Verizon called us with their sales pitch, and maintaining a traditional > land line plus dialup is still cheaper. > > > phone service. Analog landline phone service is actually much more > > expensive than most VOIP services. > > And also less reliable. That is to be expected as analog phone service > has had over 100 years of development and engineering go into it. I know > several people who switched to VOIP and then went back to analog service > due to reliability issues. But even if that were not the case, getting Around here, the analog phone service is getting *less* reliable as the physical infrastructure litterally rots. I kid you not. Verizon is doing as little as they possibly get away with in terms of maintaince. There are people in places where the phone service goes down when it rains. There are cables that fill up with water and the copper is litterally rotting away. Not only has the analog phone service has had over 100 years of development and engineering in it, some parts of it are *litterally* 100 years old! > say a broadband cable connection plus VOIP is still going to be more > expensive than our landline + dialup. > -- Robert Heller -- 978-544-6933 Deepwoods Software -- Download the Model Railroad System http://www.deepsoft.com/ -- Binaries for Linux and MS-Windows heller(a)deepsoft.com -- http://www.deepsoft.com/ModelRailroadSystem/
From: John Hasler on 18 Feb 2010 18:58
Robert Heller writes: > Around here, the analog phone service is getting *less* reliable as > the physical infrastructure litterally rots. I kid you not. Verizon > is doing as little as they possibly get away with in terms of > maintaince. There are people in places where the phone service goes > down when it rains. There are cables that fill up with water and the > copper is litterally rotting away. Don't you have a utility commission? According to the proponents of a regulated economy part of the price of having their "natural monopoly" protected from competition is supposed to be offering universal service that meets specified minimum standards. -- John Hasler jhasler(a)newsguy.com Dancing Horse Hill Elmwood, WI USA |