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From: Jim Cochrane on 13 Jan 2010 19:25
On 2010-01-13, thunder8 <thunder7(a)xs4all.nl> wrote:
> From: Jim Cochrane <allergic-to-spam(a)no-spam-allowed.invalid>
> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 08:40:46 +0000 (UTC)
>>
>> - At least 24GB memory capacity. (Will probably start out with 12GB.)
>>
> Nothing you want is exotic, except these memory requirements. I'm not
> sure consumer-boards offer 24 Gb capacity. And you want a board that
> supports it now, not one where the manufacturer says it might support
> that amount in the future, if the correct dimms will appear, and loses
> interest after 2 years.

Here is one system I've found that supports 24GB:

http://www.zareason.com/shop/product.php?productid=16214

The web site specifies a maximum configuration of 12GB, but in answer
to a query I sent, a representative of the company said that with 4GB
sticks, it will support 24GB. (They just don't have the 4GB sticks
currently in stock.)

They sell this as a Linux system, to, so there would be no worries about
compatibility if I go with this option.

>
> In other words: you want some kind of workstation/server motherboard,
> like SuperMicro, where you can add 16 dimms to a single motherboard for
> example. I think you'd best concentrate on find a motherboard that meets
> your needs, then find out if linux is supported or try to find some
> experiences on the internet with that motherboard and linux.
>
> Kind regards,
> Jurriaan


Thanks.
Jim
From: Jim Cochrane on 13 Jan 2010 19:37
On 2010-01-13, The Natural Philosopher <tnp(a)invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Jim Cochrane wrote:
>> After not having bought a new computer system for 5 or more years, I'm now
>> trying to figure out what kind of new system will best fit my needs. Any
>> advice on this will be greatly appreciated - and hopefully others will also
>> learn some useful things from the resulting threads.
>>
>
> I can only comment on a few specifics. The rest is snipped.
>
>
>> - Reliability - I'd like the system to last at least 7 years, if
>> possible.
>>
> Old computers don't die, they just can't run the latest software, that's
> all.

Well, if they survive to be old, they don't die. The last new computer I
bought around 5 years ago never got the chance to be old - it died when
it was about 4 years old. I think the CPU got fried from overheating.
I think the case was poorly designed with respect to cooling.

>
> 7 years is generally 'bleeding edge' to 'totally obsolete' IME ;-)

Well, my preference is for the computer to live long enough to
become obsolete.

>> ...
>>
> 'Good not game-level' is the key. I've got Intel onboard chipset and
> with the latest kernel, performance is 'adequate' : fortunately if you
> are going for separate graphics hardware, you can, at least, spend not
> too much to get the one that works best for you.I hear good things about
> Nvidia. Intel - at least on this very much 'cheapest board I could get;'
> is nothing special. It uses a lot of CPU to do fast video, that might be
> better offloaded to a smarter card's co processor as it were.

I think I do need better than just decent video performance, though.
The MIDI-sequencer/music-notation software I use (rosegarden) keeps the
display of the score up to date as the piece plays. For a large,
12-part or more, score, this takes a fair amount of graphics power to
not get behind.

>
>
>> - What are the best options for motherboard brands for such a system?
>> (In the small amount of research I've done so far I have the impression
>> that Asus boards are good. Is this impression accurate?)
>>
> My experience is that its not what you buy, so much as where you buy it,
> that counts. My UK supplier will always take anything back and switch it
> if it doesn't work for any reason. That costs me a 15% uplift in 'bucket
> shop' net prices, but I prefer the insurance.
>
> This is relevant to your card choice above (video). I can sit in the
> suppliers workshop, and try any card I want, and buy the one that works
> best for me.

So far zareason.com is looking pretty good. All the mention of them
I've found (google searches, etc.) have been positive.

>
>> - In general, how mature is Linux with respect to multi-threaded
>> functionality, in terms of the kernel and applications that use
>> multi-threading. (This is, of course, a long and complex topic and
>> could lead to long, complex threads, but I think a modern 64-bit music
>> system is likely to depend quite a bit on multi-threading capability,
>> so I thought I should ask it.)
>>
>
> Not delved that far, but latest kernels seem to be able to utilise
> multiple cores and processors highly effectively, from my very limited
> perspective.
>
> I honestly think that's a geek issue: In practical terms you are likely
> to be throwing together a very powerful system indeed. what are you
> going to be able to do about it if it doesn't work optimally? Nothing.
> You are stuck with the kernel that is current, and that's that. There
> may be tunable options, but no radical change in architecture is available.
>
>

True - the answer to this question, I suppose, will more likely inform
me about what I'll be able to do with such a system rather than point me
to better options. (I'm way too bigoted against Windows to consider
that option. OS X? Maybe at some point, but not at this time.)


Thanks.
Jim
From: Jim Cochrane on 13 Jan 2010 19:49
On 2010-01-13, David Brown <david(a)westcontrol.removethisbit.com> wrote:
> Jim Cochrane wrote:
>> After not having bought a new computer system for 5 or more years, I'm now
>> trying to figure out what kind of new system will best fit my needs. Any
>> advice on this will be greatly appreciated - and hopefully others will also
>> learn some useful things from the resulting threads.
>>
>> Here's what I'm looking for:
>>
>> - A modern system that costs <= about $2000 that will be dedicated
>> mostly to music composition and production (using JACK, Rosegarden,
>> perhaps ardour, etc. - i.e., good real-time performance and decent
>> [but not necessarily game-playing level] graphics will be needed).
>> (At first, the sound generator will be my Yamaha Motif XS
>> synthesizer, but it's likely I'll want to be able to generate good
>> sounds with the computer at some point.)
>>
>
> Out of curiosity, how do you find Linux software for music composition
> and production compared to things like Cubase on windows? I don't know
> much about this sort of stuff myself, but I have a friend who is a
> professional composer and musician that makes heavy use of Cubase and
> other windows music software.

I've not really used Cubase or other similar software since I don't use
Windows, but I find rosegarden to be pretty good - workable for me, at
this point. I'm sure there are things Cubase can do that RG cannot, but
I think there are also things RG can do that Cubase cannot.

They (the dev. team) just completed a port of rosegarden to QT4. It's
pretty impressive. The official release is scheduled for February.

>> - Of course, all components as Linux-compatible (e.g., fully functioning
>> drivers) as possible.
>>
>> - Probably using an Intel CPU (but I'm open to sound arguments why an AMD
>> would meet my requirements).
>>
>> - At least 24GB memory capacity. (Will probably start out with 12GB.)
>>
>
> Why so much memory? It is always nice with more, but if you could limit
> yourself to 8 GB you'd have a lot more freedom in choosing the hardware.

Well, 8GB seemed like a lot 3 or 4 years ago, but it doesn't now.
Having gotten up to 4GB with my current systems and not being satisfied
with that, I suspect that I will also not be happy with 8GB at some point.
I think with 24GB, that should delay my dissatisfaction point, probably
until after the time the system becomes obsolete ;-)

I'm surprised most current consumer-grade systems cannot surpass 8GB,
since the CPUs (AFAIK) can handle much more than that. I guess it must
be a matter of supply and demand; the average Windows use must think
that 8GB is more than all he'll ever need.

>> - Reliability - I'd like the system to last at least 7 years, if
>> possible.
>
> The key points of failure (after user error - backups are important!)
> are power supplies, fans, and hard disks. Make sure these are all of
> good quality. Also have an UPS or at least a surge protector.

Thanks for the tips. I think my last system died because of poor
cooling and the CPU overheating too often.

>> - If it matters (I don't think it does.), I'll be running Fedora 12.
>>
>> With respect to the above requirements, I have several questions that I hope
>> will help me get close to figuring out what I need:
>>
>> - What are the advantages and disadvantages of core i7 compared to core 2
>> quad (and whatever other modern Intel options within my price range
>> are available)?
>>
>
> i7 is faster for most purposes, especially the latest ones. The fastest
> core 2 quads are still (AFAIK) faster if you can keep all cores fully
> saturated, but i7 works better for uneven loads. In particular, it will
> boost the speed of busy cores if other cores are idle. The i7's also
> have faster memory (a bit more bandwidth, and significantly lower
> latency) with their on-board memory controllers. For a fast machine
> these days, I'd go for an i7-860 (the 870 is slightly faster, but costs
> a lot more).

It sounds like an i7 should be quite good, then, for a music
workstation. The one I'm looking at:

http://www.zareason.com/shop/product.php?productid=16214

offers options of a 920, 950, and 975.


Thanks.
Jim
From: Jim Cochrane on 13 Jan 2010 19:52
On 2010-01-13, General Schvantzkoph <schvantzkoph(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Jan 2010 08:40:46 +0000, Jim Cochrane wrote:
>
>> After not having bought a new computer system for 5 or more years, I'm
>> now trying to figure out what kind of new system will best fit my needs.
>> Any advice on this will be greatly appreciated - and hopefully others
>> will also learn some useful things from the resulting threads.
>>
>> Here's what I'm looking for:
>>
>> - A modern system that costs <= about $2000 that will be dedicated
>> mostly to music composition and production (using JACK, Rosegarden,
>> perhaps ardour, etc. - i.e., good real-time performance and decent
>> [but not necessarily game-playing level] graphics will be needed).
>> (At first, the sound generator will be my Yamaha Motif XS
>> synthesizer, but it's likely I'll want to be able to generate good
>> sounds with the computer at some point.)
>>
>> ...
>
> Your requirement for 24G puts you into an iCore7, the Core2 motherboards
> have 4 DIMM sockets, the iCore7 motherboards have 6 DIMM sockets. I used
> an ASUS motherboard for my iCore7 system and a Gigabyte motherboard for
> my last Core2 system. I was able to overclock the Core2 system a lot more
> than the iCore7 box. With only a sample of one I can't say if its the
> fault of the CPU or the motherboard but if I had it to do over I'd get
> another Gigabyte motherboard rather than an ASUS motherboard. You won't
> have any compatibility problems with any iCore7 motherboard.
>
> I stick with NVidia graphics cards even though they have binary drivers.
> The Fusion repositories for Fedora make it transparent and the
> performance is still much better than Intel's.
>
> I've been running 64 bit Fedora for years on all of my systems, it's
> completely solid. Linux multithreading is vary mature, most of the
> machines on the TOP 500 Supercomputer list are running Linux, those
> machines have 10's of thousands of cores, you don't need to worry about
> it handling the four cores in an iCore7.
>
> If you want to check the stability for your box I'd suggest that you run
> sys_basher on it, it's in the Fedora repositories.
>
> http://www.polybus.com/sys_basher_web/

Great info!


Thanks.
Jim
From: General Schvantzkoph on 13 Jan 2010 23:26
On Thu, 14 Jan 2010 00:49:25 +0000, Jim Cochrane wrote:

> On 2010-01-13, David Brown <david(a)westcontrol.removethisbit.com> wrote:
>> Jim Cochrane wrote:
>>> After not having bought a new computer system for 5 or more years, I'm
>>> now trying to figure out what kind of new system will best fit my
>>> needs. Any advice on this will be greatly appreciated - and hopefully
>>> others will also learn some useful things from the resulting threads.
>>>
>>> Here's what I'm looking for:
>>>
>>> - A modern system that costs <= about $2000 that will be dedicated
>>> mostly to music composition and production (using JACK,
>>> Rosegarden, perhaps ardour, etc. - i.e., good real-time
>>> performance and decent [but not necessarily game-playing level]
>>> graphics will be needed). (At first, the sound generator will be
>>> my Yamaha Motif XS synthesizer, but it's likely I'll want to be
>>> able to generate good sounds with the computer at some point.)
>>>
>>>
>> Out of curiosity, how do you find Linux software for music composition
>> and production compared to things like Cubase on windows? I don't know
>> much about this sort of stuff myself, but I have a friend who is a
>> professional composer and musician that makes heavy use of Cubase and
>> other windows music software.
>
> I've not really used Cubase or other similar software since I don't use
> Windows, but I find rosegarden to be pretty good - workable for me, at
> this point. I'm sure there are things Cubase can do that RG cannot, but
> I think there are also things RG can do that Cubase cannot.
>
> They (the dev. team) just completed a port of rosegarden to QT4. It's
> pretty impressive. The official release is scheduled for February.
>
>>> - Of course, all components as Linux-compatible (e.g., fully
>>> functioning
>>> drivers) as possible.
>>>
>>> - Probably using an Intel CPU (but I'm open to sound arguments why
>>> an AMD
>>> would meet my requirements).
>>>
>>> - At least 24GB memory capacity. (Will probably start out with
>>> 12GB.)
>>>
>>>
>> Why so much memory? It is always nice with more, but if you could
>> limit yourself to 8 GB you'd have a lot more freedom in choosing the
>> hardware.
>
> Well, 8GB seemed like a lot 3 or 4 years ago, but it doesn't now. Having
> gotten up to 4GB with my current systems and not being satisfied with
> that, I suspect that I will also not be happy with 8GB at some point. I
> think with 24GB, that should delay my dissatisfaction point, probably
> until after the time the system becomes obsolete ;-)
>
> I'm surprised most current consumer-grade systems cannot surpass 8GB,
> since the CPUs (AFAIK) can handle much more than that. I guess it must
> be a matter of supply and demand; the average Windows use must think
> that 8GB is more than all he'll ever need.
>
>>> - Reliability - I'd like the system to last at least 7 years, if
>>> possible.
>>
>> The key points of failure (after user error - backups are important!)
>> are power supplies, fans, and hard disks. Make sure these are all of
>> good quality. Also have an UPS or at least a surge protector.
>
> Thanks for the tips. I think my last system died because of poor
> cooling and the CPU overheating too often.
>
>>> - If it matters (I don't think it does.), I'll be running Fedora 12.
>>>
>>> With respect to the above requirements, I have several questions that
>>> I hope will help me get close to figuring out what I need:
>>>
>>> - What are the advantages and disadvantages of core i7 compared to
>>> core 2
>>> quad (and whatever other modern Intel options within my price
>>> range are available)?
>>>
>>>
>> i7 is faster for most purposes, especially the latest ones. The
>> fastest core 2 quads are still (AFAIK) faster if you can keep all cores
>> fully saturated, but i7 works better for uneven loads. In particular,
>> it will boost the speed of busy cores if other cores are idle. The
>> i7's also have faster memory (a bit more bandwidth, and significantly
>> lower latency) with their on-board memory controllers. For a fast
>> machine these days, I'd go for an i7-860 (the 870 is slightly faster,
>> but costs a lot more).
>
> It sounds like an i7 should be quite good, then, for a music
> workstation. The one I'm looking at:
>
> http://www.zareason.com/shop/product.php?productid=16214
>
> offers options of a 920, 950, and 975.
>
>
> Thanks.
> Jim

You can put 16G in a Core2 box but it's still expensive although the
premium for 4G DIMMs seems to have disappeared. Unfortunately the reason
that the premium has disappeared is because 2G DIMMs have gotten more
expensive, not because 4G DIMMs have become less expensive.
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