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From: Jim Cochrane on 13 Jan 2010 03:40

After not having bought a new computer system for 5 or more years, I'm now
trying to figure out what kind of new system will best fit my needs. Any
advice on this will be greatly appreciated - and hopefully others will also
learn some useful things from the resulting threads.

Here's what I'm looking for:

- A modern system that costs <= about $2000 that will be dedicated
mostly to music composition and production (using JACK, Rosegarden,
perhaps ardour, etc. - i.e., good real-time performance and decent
[but not necessarily game-playing level] graphics will be needed).
(At first, the sound generator will be my Yamaha Motif XS
synthesizer, but it's likely I'll want to be able to generate good
sounds with the computer at some point.)

- Of course, all components as Linux-compatible (e.g., fully functioning
drivers) as possible.

- Probably using an Intel CPU (but I'm open to sound arguments why an AMD
would meet my requirements).

- At least 24GB memory capacity. (Will probably start out with 12GB.)

- Reliability - I'd like the system to last at least 7 years, if
possible.

- If it matters (I don't think it does.), I'll be running Fedora 12.

With respect to the above requirements, I have several questions that I hope
will help me get close to figuring out what I need:

- What are the advantages and disadvantages of core i7 compared to core 2
quad (and whatever other modern Intel options within my price range
are available)?

- Are there any issues or potential problems I should be aware of with
respect to software (applications, drivers, etc.) working on a 64-bit
system with a 64-bit kernel?

- What are the pros and cons of using a video card (such as Intel) with
an open-source driver versus a card with a closed-source driver
(nvidia, of course)? Keep in mind, of course, that I need good,
but not game-level, video performance. (This is probably a can of
worms - and long threads - but I have to ask it.) (E.g., is the
nouveau driver for nvidia likely to be good enough or will I need
the proprietary driver?)

- What are the best options for motherboard brands for such a system?
(In the small amount of research I've done so far I have the impression
that Asus boards are good. Is this impression accurate?)

- In general, how mature is Linux with respect to multi-threaded
functionality, in terms of the kernel and applications that use
multi-threading. (This is, of course, a long and complex topic and
could lead to long, complex threads, but I think a modern 64-bit music
system is likely to depend quite a bit on multi-threading capability,
so I thought I should ask it.)

- I've come across two vendors so far that are not clueless about Linux
and that can probably provide what I need: zareason.com and
system76.com. Does any one have experience with or info about these
vendors, good or bad? (I've been considering buying the components
myself and building the system, but I think I'd prefer that someone
reliable and knowledgeable do it for me, if that's possible.)


(Sorry for covering so many different topics in one post, but I thought it
best to do it this way because some of the topics are interdependent and
the goal is to decide on an integrated system.)

(BTW, I already have a sound card - Echo MiaMIDI - I will use.)


Thanks!
From: thunder8 on 13 Jan 2010 04:11
From: Jim Cochrane <allergic-to-spam(a)no-spam-allowed.invalid>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 08:40:46 +0000 (UTC)
>
> - At least 24GB memory capacity. (Will probably start out with 12GB.)
>
Nothing you want is exotic, except these memory requirements. I'm not
sure consumer-boards offer 24 Gb capacity. And you want a board that
supports it now, not one where the manufacturer says it might support
that amount in the future, if the correct dimms will appear, and loses
interest after 2 years.

In other words: you want some kind of workstation/server motherboard,
like SuperMicro, where you can add 16 dimms to a single motherboard for
example. I think you'd best concentrate on find a motherboard that meets
your needs, then find out if linux is supported or try to find some
experiences on the internet with that motherboard and linux.

Kind regards,
Jurriaan
--
prachtige geschenken, exclusieve cadeaus: handgemaakte houten schalen

http://www.houtenschalen.nl
From: The Natural Philosopher on 13 Jan 2010 04:20
Jim Cochrane wrote:
> After not having bought a new computer system for 5 or more years, I'm now
> trying to figure out what kind of new system will best fit my needs. Any
> advice on this will be greatly appreciated - and hopefully others will also
> learn some useful things from the resulting threads.
>

I can only comment on a few specifics. The rest is snipped.


> - Reliability - I'd like the system to last at least 7 years, if
> possible.
>
Old computers don't die, they just can't run the latest software, that's
all.

7 years is generally 'bleeding edge' to 'totally obsolete' IME ;-)


>
> - Are there any issues or potential problems I should be aware of with
> respect to software (applications, drivers, etc.) working on a 64-bit
> system with a 64-bit kernel?
>
Yes. third party pre-compiled 64 bit packages are not always available
from downloads. And, if you attempt to compile them from source, you
may run into header/library incompatibilities between what the developer
used, and what the distro you decide on, has as its current set..

At some point this may force you to download and ciompile the whole or
part of the distro itself from source, and fix its problems as you go.


> - What are the pros and cons of using a video card (such as Intel) with
> an open-source driver versus a card with a closed-source driver
> (nvidia, of course)? Keep in mind, of course, that I need good,
> but not game-level, video performance. (This is probably a can of
> worms - and long threads - but I have to ask it.) (E.g., is the
> nouveau driver for nvidia likely to be good enough or will I need
> the proprietary driver?)
>
'Good not game-level' is the key. I've got Intel onboard chipset and
with the latest kernel, performance is 'adequate' : fortunately if you
are going for separate graphics hardware, you can, at least, spend not
too much to get the one that works best for you.I hear good things about
Nvidia. Intel - at least on this very much 'cheapest board I could get;'
is nothing special. It uses a lot of CPU to do fast video, that might be
better offloaded to a smarter card's co processor as it were.


> - What are the best options for motherboard brands for such a system?
> (In the small amount of research I've done so far I have the impression
> that Asus boards are good. Is this impression accurate?)
>
My experience is that its not what you buy, so much as where you buy it,
that counts. My UK supplier will always take anything back and switch it
if it doesn't work for any reason. That costs me a 15% uplift in 'bucket
shop' net prices, but I prefer the insurance.

This is relevant to your card choice above (video). I can sit in the
suppliers workshop, and try any card I want, and buy the one that works
best for me.

> - In general, how mature is Linux with respect to multi-threaded
> functionality, in terms of the kernel and applications that use
> multi-threading. (This is, of course, a long and complex topic and
> could lead to long, complex threads, but I think a modern 64-bit music
> system is likely to depend quite a bit on multi-threading capability,
> so I thought I should ask it.)
>

Not delved that far, but latest kernels seem to be able to utilise
multiple cores and processors highly effectively, from my very limited
perspective.

I honestly think that's a geek issue: In practical terms you are likely
to be throwing together a very powerful system indeed. what are you
going to be able to do about it if it doesn't work optimally? Nothing.
You are stuck with the kernel that is current, and that's that. There
may be tunable options, but no radical change in architecture is available.


From: David Brown on 13 Jan 2010 06:29
Jim Cochrane wrote:
> After not having bought a new computer system for 5 or more years, I'm now
> trying to figure out what kind of new system will best fit my needs. Any
> advice on this will be greatly appreciated - and hopefully others will also
> learn some useful things from the resulting threads.
>
> Here's what I'm looking for:
>
> - A modern system that costs <= about $2000 that will be dedicated
> mostly to music composition and production (using JACK, Rosegarden,
> perhaps ardour, etc. - i.e., good real-time performance and decent
> [but not necessarily game-playing level] graphics will be needed).
> (At first, the sound generator will be my Yamaha Motif XS
> synthesizer, but it's likely I'll want to be able to generate good
> sounds with the computer at some point.)
>

Out of curiosity, how do you find Linux software for music composition
and production compared to things like Cubase on windows? I don't know
much about this sort of stuff myself, but I have a friend who is a
professional composer and musician that makes heavy use of Cubase and
other windows music software.

> - Of course, all components as Linux-compatible (e.g., fully functioning
> drivers) as possible.
>
> - Probably using an Intel CPU (but I'm open to sound arguments why an AMD
> would meet my requirements).
>
> - At least 24GB memory capacity. (Will probably start out with 12GB.)
>

Why so much memory? It is always nice with more, but if you could limit
yourself to 8 GB you'd have a lot more freedom in choosing the hardware.

> - Reliability - I'd like the system to last at least 7 years, if
> possible.
>

The key points of failure (after user error - backups are important!)
are power supplies, fans, and hard disks. Make sure these are all of
good quality. Also have an UPS or at least a surge protector.

> - If it matters (I don't think it does.), I'll be running Fedora 12.
>
> With respect to the above requirements, I have several questions that I hope
> will help me get close to figuring out what I need:
>
> - What are the advantages and disadvantages of core i7 compared to core 2
> quad (and whatever other modern Intel options within my price range
> are available)?
>

i7 is faster for most purposes, especially the latest ones. The fastest
core 2 quads are still (AFAIK) faster if you can keep all cores fully
saturated, but i7 works better for uneven loads. In particular, it will
boost the speed of busy cores if other cores are idle. The i7's also
have faster memory (a bit more bandwidth, and significantly lower
latency) with their on-board memory controllers. For a fast machine
these days, I'd go for an i7-860 (the 870 is slightly faster, but costs
a lot more).

> - Are there any issues or potential problems I should be aware of with
> respect to software (applications, drivers, etc.) working on a 64-bit
> system with a 64-bit kernel?
>
> - What are the pros and cons of using a video card (such as Intel) with
> an open-source driver versus a card with a closed-source driver
> (nvidia, of course)? Keep in mind, of course, that I need good,
> but not game-level, video performance. (This is probably a can of
> worms - and long threads - but I have to ask it.) (E.g., is the
> nouveau driver for nvidia likely to be good enough or will I need
> the proprietary driver?)
>
> - What are the best options for motherboard brands for such a system?
> (In the small amount of research I've done so far I have the impression
> that Asus boards are good. Is this impression accurate?)
>
> - In general, how mature is Linux with respect to multi-threaded
> functionality, in terms of the kernel and applications that use
> multi-threading. (This is, of course, a long and complex topic and
> could lead to long, complex threads, but I think a modern 64-bit music
> system is likely to depend quite a bit on multi-threading capability,
> so I thought I should ask it.)
>
> - I've come across two vendors so far that are not clueless about Linux
> and that can probably provide what I need: zareason.com and
> system76.com. Does any one have experience with or info about these
> vendors, good or bad? (I've been considering buying the components
> myself and building the system, but I think I'd prefer that someone
> reliable and knowledgeable do it for me, if that's possible.)
>
>
> (Sorry for covering so many different topics in one post, but I thought it
> best to do it this way because some of the topics are interdependent and
> the goal is to decide on an integrated system.)
>
> (BTW, I already have a sound card - Echo MiaMIDI - I will use.)
>
>
> Thanks!
From: General Schvantzkoph on 13 Jan 2010 12:04
On Wed, 13 Jan 2010 08:40:46 +0000, Jim Cochrane wrote:

> After not having bought a new computer system for 5 or more years, I'm
> now trying to figure out what kind of new system will best fit my needs.
> Any advice on this will be greatly appreciated - and hopefully others
> will also learn some useful things from the resulting threads.
>
> Here's what I'm looking for:
>
> - A modern system that costs <= about $2000 that will be dedicated
> mostly to music composition and production (using JACK, Rosegarden,
> perhaps ardour, etc. - i.e., good real-time performance and decent
> [but not necessarily game-playing level] graphics will be needed).
> (At first, the sound generator will be my Yamaha Motif XS
> synthesizer, but it's likely I'll want to be able to generate good
> sounds with the computer at some point.)
>
> - Of course, all components as Linux-compatible (e.g., fully
> functioning
> drivers) as possible.
>
> - Probably using an Intel CPU (but I'm open to sound arguments why an
> AMD
> would meet my requirements).
>
> - At least 24GB memory capacity. (Will probably start out with 12GB.)
>
> - Reliability - I'd like the system to last at least 7 years, if
> possible.
>
> - If it matters (I don't think it does.), I'll be running Fedora 12.
>
> With respect to the above requirements, I have several questions that I
> hope will help me get close to figuring out what I need:
>
> - What are the advantages and disadvantages of core i7 compared to
> core 2
> quad (and whatever other modern Intel options within my price range
> are available)?
>
> - Are there any issues or potential problems I should be aware of with
> respect to software (applications, drivers, etc.) working on a
> 64-bit system with a 64-bit kernel?
>
> - What are the pros and cons of using a video card (such as Intel)
> with
> an open-source driver versus a card with a closed-source driver
> (nvidia, of course)? Keep in mind, of course, that I need good, but
> not game-level, video performance. (This is probably a can of worms
> - and long threads - but I have to ask it.) (E.g., is the nouveau
> driver for nvidia likely to be good enough or will I need the
> proprietary driver?)
>
> - What are the best options for motherboard brands for such a system?
> (In the small amount of research I've done so far I have the
> impression that Asus boards are good. Is this impression accurate?)
>
> - In general, how mature is Linux with respect to multi-threaded
> functionality, in terms of the kernel and applications that use
> multi-threading. (This is, of course, a long and complex topic and
> could lead to long, complex threads, but I think a modern 64-bit
> music system is likely to depend quite a bit on multi-threading
> capability,
> so I thought I should ask it.)
>
> - I've come across two vendors so far that are not clueless about
> Linux
> and that can probably provide what I need: zareason.com and
> system76.com. Does any one have experience with or info about these
> vendors, good or bad? (I've been considering buying the components
> myself and building the system, but I think I'd prefer that someone
> reliable and knowledgeable do it for me, if that's possible.)
>
>
> (Sorry for covering so many different topics in one post, but I thought
> it best to do it this way because some of the topics are interdependent
> and the goal is to decide on an integrated system.)
>
> (BTW, I already have a sound card - Echo MiaMIDI - I will use.)
>
>
> Thanks!

Your requirement for 24G puts you into an iCore7, the Core2 motherboards
have 4 DIMM sockets, the iCore7 motherboards have 6 DIMM sockets. I used
an ASUS motherboard for my iCore7 system and a Gigabyte motherboard for
my last Core2 system. I was able to overclock the Core2 system a lot more
than the iCore7 box. With only a sample of one I can't say if its the
fault of the CPU or the motherboard but if I had it to do over I'd get
another Gigabyte motherboard rather than an ASUS motherboard. You won't
have any compatibility problems with any iCore7 motherboard.

I stick with NVidia graphics cards even though they have binary drivers.
The Fusion repositories for Fedora make it transparent and the
performance is still much better than Intel's.

I've been running 64 bit Fedora for years on all of my systems, it's
completely solid. Linux multithreading is vary mature, most of the
machines on the TOP 500 Supercomputer list are running Linux, those
machines have 10's of thousands of cores, you don't need to worry about
it handling the four cores in an iCore7.

If you want to check the stability for your box I'd suggest that you run
sys_basher on it, it's in the Fedora repositories.

http://www.polybus.com/sys_basher_web/
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