Prev: Linux friendly Laptops and Netbooks??
Next: How can you get the speed of a mobo's FSB?
From: Clemens Ladisch on 14 Jan 2010 04:05
Jim Cochrane wrote:
> I think I do need better than just decent video performance, though.
> The MIDI-sequencer/music-notation software I use (rosegarden) keeps the
> display of the score up to date as the piece plays. For a large,
> 12-part or more, score, this takes a fair amount of graphics power to
> not get behind.

If the notes were rendered beautifully with 3D highlights and shadows,
the graphics card would take part in this. However, what actually
happens is that the CPU creates a bitmap of the display and tells the
GPU to copy it to video memory; you don't need 3D acceleration for that.

Any integrated graphics is more than enough, and using an Intel or AMD
GPU with an Open Source driver gives you better compatibility with
custom kernels. Furthermore, the closed drivers like to prioritize
graphics over anything else which might introduce latencies if you're
doing real-time audio stuff.


HTH
Clemens
From: David Brown on 14 Jan 2010 04:19
Jim Cochrane wrote:
> On 2010-01-13, David Brown <david(a)westcontrol.removethisbit.com> wrote:
>> Jim Cochrane wrote:
>>> After not having bought a new computer system for 5 or more years, I'm now
>>> trying to figure out what kind of new system will best fit my needs. Any
>>> advice on this will be greatly appreciated - and hopefully others will also
>>> learn some useful things from the resulting threads.
>>>
>>> Here's what I'm looking for:
>>>
>>> - A modern system that costs <= about $2000 that will be dedicated
>>> mostly to music composition and production (using JACK, Rosegarden,
>>> perhaps ardour, etc. - i.e., good real-time performance and decent
>>> [but not necessarily game-playing level] graphics will be needed).
>>> (At first, the sound generator will be my Yamaha Motif XS
>>> synthesizer, but it's likely I'll want to be able to generate good
>>> sounds with the computer at some point.)
>>>
>> Out of curiosity, how do you find Linux software for music composition
>> and production compared to things like Cubase on windows? I don't know
>> much about this sort of stuff myself, but I have a friend who is a
>> professional composer and musician that makes heavy use of Cubase and
>> other windows music software.
>
> I've not really used Cubase or other similar software since I don't use
> Windows, but I find rosegarden to be pretty good - workable for me, at
> this point. I'm sure there are things Cubase can do that RG cannot, but
> I think there are also things RG can do that Cubase cannot.
>

Fair enough.

Can I ask another related question while we are at it? My soon-to-be 13
year old has a Yamaha electric keyboard (not a professional-level
system, but not a toy either - a solid hobby level) and I've recently
got a USB-to-midi cable with a view to connecting it to my Ubuntu laptop
and trying out Rosegarden. Is Rosegarden easy enough to get started
with for a musical amateur (I've got no problem with computer side of
things)? Have you suggestions for other Linux software that could be
fun to try out with this system, such as a simple sequencer or recorder,
or a drum machine? I'll wander around the net myself, but it does no
harm to have a pointer or two as to where to look!

> They (the dev. team) just completed a port of rosegarden to QT4. It's
> pretty impressive. The official release is scheduled for February.
>
>>> - Of course, all components as Linux-compatible (e.g., fully functioning
>>> drivers) as possible.
>>>
>>> - Probably using an Intel CPU (but I'm open to sound arguments why an AMD
>>> would meet my requirements).
>>>
>>> - At least 24GB memory capacity. (Will probably start out with 12GB.)
>>>
>> Why so much memory? It is always nice with more, but if you could limit
>> yourself to 8 GB you'd have a lot more freedom in choosing the hardware.
>
> Well, 8GB seemed like a lot 3 or 4 years ago, but it doesn't now.
> Having gotten up to 4GB with my current systems and not being satisfied
> with that, I suspect that I will also not be happy with 8GB at some point.
> I think with 24GB, that should delay my dissatisfaction point, probably
> until after the time the system becomes obsolete ;-)
>
> I'm surprised most current consumer-grade systems cannot surpass 8GB,
> since the CPUs (AFAIK) can handle much more than that. I guess it must
> be a matter of supply and demand; the average Windows use must think
> that 8GB is more than all he'll ever need.
>

Taking figures out of the air, 95% of the market is windows machines,
and 98% of current windows systems are 32-bit (without PAE) rather than
64-bit (though the balance is probably more like 90/10 for new systems
now that there is 64-bit windows that works). There is only a tiny
proportion of systems that can make use of more than 4 GB ram (or
actually about 3 - 3.5 GB, since the hardware takes up some of the
address space).

As well as there being few systems that can support more than 4 GB ram,
there are few consumer-level applications that can make use of it.
Video editing is about the only application I can think of - unless you
are doing professional composition like yourself, it is very hard to
fill so much memory with audio alone. Some games can benefit from more
memory, but even then they aim to run well within the 4 GB boundary.

Adding more memory slots adds complexity and slows down memory buses -
they are common on server systems which can benefit from large memories,
but suffer from longer memory latencies (and sometimes lower bandwidth).
And making bigger DIMMs has disadvantages too - again you have higher
latencies for the largest devices, you have heat issues, and of course
there is the extra cost per MB when the chips used are beyond the
production sweet-spot in size.

>>> - Reliability - I'd like the system to last at least 7 years, if
>>> possible.
>> The key points of failure (after user error - backups are important!)
>> are power supplies, fans, and hard disks. Make sure these are all of
>> good quality. Also have an UPS or at least a surge protector.
>
> Thanks for the tips. I think my last system died because of poor
> cooling and the CPU overheating too often.
>

Also look at cooling for your memory, especially when you are trying to
pack it so densely. You probably want heat sinks on them, and possibly
a fan.

>>> - If it matters (I don't think it does.), I'll be running Fedora 12.
>>>
>>> With respect to the above requirements, I have several questions that I hope
>>> will help me get close to figuring out what I need:
>>>
>>> - What are the advantages and disadvantages of core i7 compared to core 2
>>> quad (and whatever other modern Intel options within my price range
>>> are available)?
>>>
>> i7 is faster for most purposes, especially the latest ones. The fastest
>> core 2 quads are still (AFAIK) faster if you can keep all cores fully
>> saturated, but i7 works better for uneven loads. In particular, it will
>> boost the speed of busy cores if other cores are idle. The i7's also
>> have faster memory (a bit more bandwidth, and significantly lower
>> latency) with their on-board memory controllers. For a fast machine
>> these days, I'd go for an i7-860 (the 870 is slightly faster, but costs
>> a lot more).
>
> It sounds like an i7 should be quite good, then, for a music
> workstation. The one I'm looking at:
>
> http://www.zareason.com/shop/product.php?productid=16214
>
> offers options of a 920, 950, and 975.
>

i7 is definitely the architecture to go for. There are two packages -
the LGA1156 and LGA1366. The smaller package devices like the 860 and
870 only support 2 DDR channels and 16 bits of PCI-E, while the larger
packages support 3 DDR channels and 32 bits of PCI-E (on the chipset).
But the i7-870 devices are faster (and have faster memory buses),
especially on single threaded software, and have simpler and lower-power
chipsets.

The alternative if you are determined about getting the largest possible
memory, is to aim for something targeted as a server. I don't know
offhand what the best processor architecture is there, but it could be
AMD and dual sockets. The price will go up, however - but so will the
quality of the system.
From: Jim Cochrane on 14 Jan 2010 21:14
On 2010-01-14, Clemens Ladisch <clemens(a)ladisch.de> wrote:
> Jim Cochrane wrote:
>> I think I do need better than just decent video performance, though.
>> The MIDI-sequencer/music-notation software I use (rosegarden) keeps the
>> display of the score up to date as the piece plays. For a large,
>> 12-part or more, score, this takes a fair amount of graphics power to
>> not get behind.
>
> If the notes were rendered beautifully with 3D highlights and shadows,
> the graphics card would take part in this. However, what actually
> happens is that the CPU creates a bitmap of the display and tells the
> GPU to copy it to video memory; you don't need 3D acceleration for that.

Yes, you're right. Thanks for the correction.

> Any integrated graphics is more than enough, and using an Intel or AMD
> GPU with an Open Source driver gives you better compatibility with
> custom kernels. Furthermore, the closed drivers like to prioritize
> graphics over anything else which might introduce latencies if you're
> doing real-time audio stuff.

Good point. I think you're right that a non-nvidia video card with an
open-source driver will work fine for me.

I will sometimes want to watch movies on the system, but that's not 3D
and I'm sure a decent Intel or AMD card should perform this function
with no problem.


Thanks.
Jim
From: Jim Cochrane on 14 Jan 2010 21:22
On 2010-01-14, General Schvantzkoph <schvantzkoph(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Jan 2010 00:49:25 +0000, Jim Cochrane wrote:
>
>> On 2010-01-13, David Brown <david(a)westcontrol.removethisbit.com> wrote:
>>> Jim Cochrane wrote:
>>>> ...
>
> You can put 16G in a Core2 box but it's still expensive although the
> premium for 4G DIMMs seems to have disappeared. Unfortunately the reason
> that the premium has disappeared is because 2G DIMMs have gotten more
> expensive, not because 4G DIMMs have become less expensive.

Hmm, I wonder why both 2G and 4G prices are so high right now. I would
have thought that with the recession there'd be lower demand and the
price would go down. But the world economy is pretty complex and chaotic
right now, so the cause-effect process is probably not that simple. And,
perhaps these chips are expensive because they're not being manufactored
in very large quantities because of the low demand. Is there a known
explanation on the high memory prices?

Anyway, if 2G and 4G are both expensive, I might as well get the 4G.


Thanks.
Jim
From: Jim Cochrane on 14 Jan 2010 21:56
On 2010-01-14, David Brown <david(a)westcontrol.removethisbit.com> wrote:
> Jim Cochrane wrote:
>> On 2010-01-13, David Brown <david(a)westcontrol.removethisbit.com> wrote:
>>> Jim Cochrane wrote:
>>>> After not having bought a new computer system for 5 or more years, I'm now
>>>> ...
>>> Out of curiosity, how do you find Linux software for music composition
>>> and production compared to things like Cubase on windows? I don't know
>>> much about this sort of stuff myself, but I have a friend who is a
>>> professional composer and musician that makes heavy use of Cubase and
>>> other windows music software.
>>
>> I've not really used Cubase or other similar software since I don't use
>> Windows, but I find rosegarden to be pretty good - workable for me, at
>> this point. I'm sure there are things Cubase can do that RG cannot, but
>> I think there are also things RG can do that Cubase cannot.
>>
>
> Fair enough.
>
> Can I ask another related question while we are at it? My soon-to-be 13
> year old has a Yamaha electric keyboard (not a professional-level
> system, but not a toy either - a solid hobby level) and I've recently
> got a USB-to-midi cable with a view to connecting it to my Ubuntu laptop
> and trying out Rosegarden. Is Rosegarden easy enough to get started
> with for a musical amateur (I've got no problem with computer side of
> things)? Have you suggestions for other Linux software that could be
> fun to try out with this system, such as a simple sequencer or recorder,
> or a drum machine? I'll wander around the net myself, but it does no
> harm to have a pointer or two as to where to look!

I think that if you can get Rosegarden installed and working for your
son (Getting it working can be a little tricky, especially when the
sounds come from your computer via software synthesizers; but since your
son would use the Yamaha as an external source [I'm assuming], it will
probably not be difficult to get it working.) and if you're there to
help him with it if he needs help, he should find it relatively easy to
use. He may even be able to get pretty far with it without any help -
He will have to spend some time with it up front (not a lot, I'd say) to
get used to how it works and how it expects the user to use it. But on
the whole it's pretty intuitive, and quite fun when you get the hang of
it. Since it is quite powerful, it would probably take a lot of effort to
learn how to take advantage of a lot of its powerful features, but IMO you
can do a lot with it even if you don't expend this effort.

I think the beta version of the QT4 port is probably stable enough to
use for a regular user, but if you try it out and run into problems, you
can try 1.7.3, the latest pre-port version. Their online documentation
is pretty good, and the mailing list tends to be pretty helpful.
(Suggestion, search the list first for posts about the same
problem/issue before posting yourself.)

As far as other systems, I don't know a lot, but I keep hearing about
Hydrogen (drum machine software) and it seems that a lot of people like
it a lot. (E.g.: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7846) I've seen
several posts to the rosegarden mailing list about people using Hydrogen
and rosegarden.

As far as other sequencers and related software, I don't know enough to
recommend anything else, but here are some resources that could help you
get an idea of what might provide what you need. This article:
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7912, although rather old, still
gives some good descriptions of linux sequencers and I think most or all
of them are still available. Also, check out these two:
http://www.linux-sound.org/
http://tldp.org/HOWTO/MIDI-HOWTO-8.html

Good luck!
First  |  Prev  |  Next  |  Last
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5
Prev: Linux friendly Laptops and Netbooks??
Next: How can you get the speed of a mobo's FSB?