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From: Hector Santos on 26 Feb 2010 15:57 Joseph M. Newcomer wrote: > **** >> I just did a quick timing test with a 1 line hello world: >> >> XP box source code across the LAN: >> >> VC6 : ~700ms >> VS2005: ~1600ms > **** > These times are too small to matter, and the source example is too small to matter. Dimensional analysis. :) I was trying to get base line compare for the minimum compiler overhead. Yes, I understand VC8+ compiler has higher overhead, its definitely a better "lint" and the VS2005 IDE debugger is better! The debugger helped pinpoint a "technically" possible memory corruption with one my "stable" B-TREE database libraries. I was tickled pick with that! I was also very happy that it fixed the intermittent VC6 debugger dead lock issues in DEBUG compiled threaded applications with regards to TRACE. > **** > The use of the crypto subsystem is definitely weird. I wonder what they are checking? > Llicense validity? No idea. Right. I recall thinking security and/or certificates related perhaps, I posted the findings in the newsgroups and in the MDSN forums back in 2008. I don't recall any explanation or SWAG posted. Here some old links: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/43524/why-is-visual-studio-2005-so-slow http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/forums/en-US/vcgeneral/thread/3d76e7c6-7823-4ade-adf5-ff7f9a2092c3 Note: VS2005 under 2000 did not show the slowdown before I got the XP box and reinstalled there. So its probably related to new XP+ OS sub-system issue. After getting more memory for the XP box, changing some Paging registry performance settings, it was more bearable and I didn't worry about it any more. -- HLS
From: Ajay Kalra on 26 Feb 2010 16:06 On Feb 26, 2:50 pm, Joseph M. Newcomer <newco...(a)flounder.com> wrote: > .NET doesn't solve the 3D problem if you are trying to port your visualization software > across. Far too slow. What does this have to do with .Net though? GDI is slow for 3D. We used OpenGL in Win32/MFC. > None of these people, who are desperately concerned with graphics performance, would > consider WPF or .NET a suitable replacement. ..Net/WPF is not meant to replace graphics intensive engines. -- Ajay
From: Hector Santos on 26 Feb 2010 16:46 Joseph M. Newcomer wrote: >> I'm a speed demon, power programmer. I really only used the IDE to >> design the GUI and outline of events. From there, I use my trusted >> Qedit (renamed to TSE) power programmer editor >> (http://www.semware.com) of 30 years - the BEST in the world. :) I >> need fast loading, no slow downs in typing, and fast macro programming >> for patterns. I don't need intellisense slowing me down - its terrible. > **** > I'm with you on that. We can debate whether qedit (which I've never used) or Epsilon > (which I've used for 22 years) is the "best" editor, but the key thing Microsoft > COMPLETELY overlooked: editors are not a technology, they are a religion. Right. Back in the day, for a 40 person OS/2 project team, we ordered a bunch of Qedit and a few Epsilon if I recall, DOS port, it might of been VI, I don't recall which one it was, but the standard "unix editor" was ordered for the CMU recruits. :) I tried to adopt it but I found it slower, loading and display wise, I guess because it was based on standard I/O and ANSI/VT100 if I recall. Don't know, a SWAG because it did allow you to work remotely and did use it under those situations. QEDIT was hardwired for direct screen I/O only, so of course, it was faster "display wise." Fast loading/handling of larger files and screen I/O was the product's key selling points with a small footprint. Not designed for console terminals. I believed it used DPMI to handle larger memory. The 32 bit version, of course, uses WIN32 console I/O API. But no doubt, programming editors is a religion, no losers or winners. > The ONLY sane > approach was to provide an editor-friendly API to encourage third parties to produce > editors. This includes all the Intellisense, highlighting, etc. features. I must admit I took it for granted that was the case. > **** >> But the younger engineers use the IDE and I am not going to discourage >> them. They are amazed at how fast I program and how fast I swap things >> around with macros, but but its foreign to them. They really don't >> know the difference and they think it (IDE) is normal and I believe >> that is what Microsoft is thinking is the market too. > **** > I find the attitude that "we know best how you should use your primary interface to the > computer, and screw you for believing otherwise" to be inappropriate. > **** IMV, there are (were) there type of editor/user needs based on keystokes WordStar-based VI Windows CUI (default, I think, I change it WS so I forgot.) Has that changed? I understand your point, but there is also the idea that from a product standpoint, Pareto Optimality comes into play. I recall during the early development days, it was a challenge to get a good editor unless you wrote one. I recall attempting to license the small sweet Turbo Pascal wordstar-like Editor to add an editor into our early products. I ended up writing one for the message editor that support VT100 for our BBS product which is still usable today when you connect via Telnet or dialup. For our p-code compiler MDI-based IDE, we first used an Rich-edit view then wrote our own and now I'm looking at some open source editors like Crimson, NotePad++. So IMO, its a design challenge and pareto comes into play. But yes, sure, for a big company like MS with a diverse developer customer base, it should had taking a strong look at editor design issues. Just consider, I wonder, if people like you and I are, well, dare I say, dinosaurs? I don't think it has to be that way, and that is why I blame Ray Ozzie (gotten blame some one who is making decisions) for much of the direction MS is going - more of a AD-HOC product oriented framework that caters to larger group of people, or larger group they feel they can MOLD into their product line way of thinking. Hey, all product developers are always faced with these same give and take issues. I try very hard not to allow my personal preferences to dictate things that need flexibility. Sometimes you have to make a decision since its very expenses to cater to all. We ask customers "what should we do here?" and more often than not the answer we got "make it an option." What is what we mostly do, but sometimes its cost more to that. Oh well. -- HLS
From: David Lowndes on 26 Feb 2010 18:54 >But it seems the same of issues (and possible worst) has continued. I >read the project manager blog and I believe he was misguided taking >"reviews" from testers who I honestly believe they don't really want >to tell him the bad news, so they tell him "its better than the beta" >and believes thats OK! I don't think that is the real test. Agreed. I still think VS2010 sucks (performance wise) - it seems to take ages to load on my test VM. I can get VS2005/8 loaded and working before the splash screen on VS2010 has thought about going away. Dave
From: Joseph M. Newcomer on 26 Feb 2010 19:22
See below... On Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:21:44 -0500, Hector Santos <sant9442(a)nospam.gmail.com> wrote: >Ajay Kalra wrote: > >>> But the younger engineers use the IDE and I am not going to discourage >>> them. They are amazed at how fast I program and how fast I swap things >>> around with macros, but but its foreign to them. They really don't >>> know the difference and they think it (IDE) is normal and I believe >>> that is what Microsoft is thinking is the market too. >> >> The trouble with this logic you are comparing an exprienced person, >> such as yourself with others who are rookies with IDE. IDE is very >> very powerful. You can have define any macros you want to do whatever >> you want. I have customized my keys to whatever I want, inclusing auto- >> checkout, comparisons, code insertions, debugging, code view etc. I >> would be surprised if IDE cant do what you do in the other tool. >> >> In C#, there is a tool called Resharper which is designed for such >> things. Equivalent to some extent in VC is Whole Tomato's product. > >Don't get me wrong. I agree with you. I'm among the exception than the >rule. I am not a cut and dry person. Everyone has their reasons so I >am trying to indicate one way is bad or the other. Personally >personal. I do use the IDE more than I said I do. But its not my >principle programming tool and only because I want things done fast. >For example, if I wanted to write a quicky, maybe as an example for a >post here, I pop up Qedit, hit ctrl ], and a C/C++ console outline. >Type whatever, hit F9 compile and done. This is far slower than >loading the IDE and a small hassle just to get a single file compile >and link. I think now with the VS200x, if you do this, it wants to >create project files, solutions files, output files, etc, just alot of >overhead. > >Maybe there a way around that, I don't recall if I found that, but I >haven't fully embraced VS200x to know for one main reason, we are not >ready to complete to .NET. Everything we have is RPC, WIN32 and MFC. >Millions of dollars invested over the years, including the packaging. >Sure, we can put a label over the requirements copy on the box (.NET >required), but overall the revamping is a major investment and in my >MS did show signs of neglect towards long time developers. I >personally believe Ray Ozzie is the blame and thats only probably >because I have to blame someone :) > >Yes, I did like the C# editor features over the VB features. I love >the idea of refactoring, or what that called "reshaper?" Same thing? > >Yes, the macros are possible with the IDE and I have used it. I guess >probably if anything, is not wanting yet to retool the IDE with my >long time productivity preferences especially since I wasn't fully >committed to it. > >What didn't help was: > > - VS2005 was really slow in compiling. I spent a lot of time > trying to figure that one out. > > - Intellsense was really slow, yes, got the old patch, I don't > know if > > - Not having MFC class wizard support, > > - the Online Help was BROKEN, and thats probably because > > - I was FUMING with the idea that a IDE was not a "social > networking tool" and I removed a DLL that was invoked for > this in the IDE. I forget what dll it was, but its > documented in the net as a way to effectively disable > this "spy ware" **** It is a common trick to document some critical DLL as being a security threat; people remove it, and their system is crippled. This was a common denial-of-service spam attack some years ago, and the myths still persist. Remember, the ONLY way to "remove" a file like this is to rename it, e.g., xxxx,dll gets renamed to xxxx.removed-dll so it is TRIVIAL to put it back. Why should the fact that the IDE is not a social networking tool upset you? The last I looked, Facebook didn't compile C++ code, either. Bottom line: (a) don't trust everything you read on the Web (b) don't remove files by deleting them **** > >The latter is extremely personal to me as a highly ethical engineer >that has designed software that addressed high ethicals in social >engineering and have probably lost millions if not billions because I >am such a stickler for such strong engineering and privacy issues. I >will probably say that this VS issue alone of having this "social >help" thing in the IDE was the #1 reason I stayed around from VS and .NET. **** I have never seen a "social help" feature in the IDE, but maybe that's because I never went looking for one. Are you sure you are not confusing this with the "community help" feature? If you don't like it, don't use it! (a) I never, ever, use the IDE help system for anything (b) I run the MSDN help viewer as a separate process, and put it in a separate monitor, and never, ever use Web-based help. It is too slow. And my firewalls and security settings prevent it working properly, anyway. Only one of my machines has direct connection to the Internet; the rest live behind serious firewalls, even stronger than the Internet machine has. Other than Microsoft Update, no other machine ever does Internet access. I don't trust *any* Web page that has active content. But then, if you'd been taken out twice, a week at a time, by scripting attacks, you'd probably have the same degree of caution. **** > >It bothers me a lot but I also grown weary and apathetic to the >reality that users today don't care - its the "new normal." In fact, >that apathy is shown by the fact that I began to install things, >including VS2005 again to just LET It do its thing and not try to >inference in how it suppose to work. That new "attitude" is needed >today because many things today do not work without having what is >expected enabled - like a web site that totally breaks done if you >don't have javascript enabled or don't allow for some AD tracking >company to be pinged! **** google's gmail catastrophe of a couple weeks ago shows how little people care about security or privacy. Except for a few loudmouths who pointed out that Buzz violated every known principle of privacy, nobody said anything about this horrendous piece of stupidity. Even google's response was of the "so what's the problem?" attitude. I personally think that JavaScript based Web sites represent the work of serious sociopaths. The only thing that is worse is the Web sites that don't work if you don't have Flash installed! The attitude is f--- the end user, we want our site to look cool. Until Microsoft or some other browser company gives me a GUARANTEE that a Web page will die a horrible death if it tries to write to my file system, modify my Registry, or otherwise do anything that could affect my permanent machine state, I will have nothing to do with client-side scripting. It's just stupid. If it had been DESIGNED secure, it would make sense, but it was designed with the same naivete that gave us email that cannot be tracked to the sender: everyone on the Internet is user-friendly and would NEVER do ANYTHING that violates my privacy or security. And if you believe THAT, then you are ready to help those poor people whose Nigerian relatives have money to transfer to you. joe Joseph M. Newcomer [MVP] email: newcomer(a)flounder.com Web: http://www.flounder.com MVP Tips: http://www.flounder.com/mvp_tips.htm |