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From: Joseph M. Newcomer on 24 Feb 2010 17:33 The issue is not what they do with the information; it is how badly it is presented. It looks like HTML of twenty years ago. I have been told that my website looks like it was designed by a 12-year-old. My response is that I am not, and have no pretensions of being, a Web designer. In fact, I don't want anything to do with the concept. I'm not good at it, and don't care. But user interfaces (which my Web site is NOT) take a lot of careful engineering. There are workflow issues, for example. Products like Forte Agent are a pleasure to use. They have spent long years engineering a user-friendly interface that maximizes productivity in using the newsgroup. The forums, on the other hand, were not "designed"; they were clearly "thrown together", as far as OUR interface is concerned. I don't care about ads (in fact, if I could turn them off, I would). I don't care if Microsoft wants to do data mining; that's their problem. Even spam has not been a serious problem on our newsgroups. I care about having a first-rate user experience. So while on the one side Microsoft blathers about "having a rich multimedia Web experience", they can't even produce a fourth-rate Web experience in the forums. It is not smooth, it is not easy, it is just a few widgets and some JavaScript tossed haphazardly at a REAL problem. This does not lead to a first-rate experience. It *does* produce a first-rate disaster, compared to any decent newsgroup reader. joe On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 14:12:26 -0800, "Tom Serface" <tom(a)camaswood.com> wrote: > >There is a certain type of elegance to the forums. First off they can do >advertising and keep statistics about who's doing what. That provides them >with valuable feedback. They are pretty easy to search as well. It must >be difficult trying to manage public newsgroup servers as well with all of >the spam stuff going on. > >They have gotten much easier to use over the past few months. MSFT is >putting a lot of effort into making it work. > >Tom > >"Ajay Kalra" <ajaykalra(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message >news:3407501a-d30e-4556-99c9-f657ed52f0b2(a)q21g2000yqm.googlegroups.com... >> On Feb 24, 2:43 pm, Joseph M. Newcomer <newco...(a)flounder.com> wrote: >>> The design of the forums could be called "amateurish" but that gives a >>> bad name to amateur >>> designers everywhere, and constitutes defamation of character for >>> amateurs. >>> >>> I find them completely and utterly unusable. >> >> I dont understand why we need forums when we have NGs. What exactly do >> they offer that cant be done in a NG? >> >> -- >> Ajay >> Joseph M. Newcomer [MVP] email: newcomer(a)flounder.com Web: http://www.flounder.com MVP Tips: http://www.flounder.com/mvp_tips.htm
From: Tom Serface on 24 Feb 2010 18:42 Hi Joe, Not to beat it up or anything, but I think newsgroups are easy for guys like us, but for the common person they are becoming more problematic. They are difficult to find, later versions of Windows don't even come with a reader, and users have to set up ports and stuff to get to them. Websites are easy to get to in any browser with a link. So, for the users, the setup is much easier. I like newsgroups too, but I confess it's mostly since I'm used to them and it's easier for me to do thinks offline. Tom "Joseph M. Newcomer" <newcomer(a)flounder.com> wrote in message news:4t9bo5df2guk36gb2588c42cfpfkkm34rv(a)4ax.com... > The issue is not what they do with the information; it is how badly it is > presented. It > looks like HTML of twenty years ago. > > I have been told that my website looks like it was designed by a > 12-year-old. My response > is that I am not, and have no pretensions of being, a Web designer. In > fact, I don't want > anything to do with the concept. I'm not good at it, and don't care. > > But user interfaces (which my Web site is NOT) take a lot of careful > engineering. There > are workflow issues, for example. Products like Forte Agent are a > pleasure to use. They > have spent long years engineering a user-friendly interface that maximizes > productivity in > using the newsgroup. The forums, on the other hand, were not "designed"; > they were > clearly "thrown together", as far as OUR interface is concerned. I don't > care about ads > (in fact, if I could turn them off, I would). I don't care if Microsoft > wants to do data > mining; that's their problem. Even spam has not been a serious problem on > our newsgroups. > I care about having a first-rate user experience. So while on the one > side Microsoft > blathers about "having a rich multimedia Web experience", they can't even > produce a > fourth-rate Web experience in the forums. It is not smooth, it is not > easy, it is just a > few widgets and some JavaScript tossed haphazardly at a REAL problem. > This does not lead > to a first-rate experience. It *does* produce a first-rate disaster, > compared to any > decent newsgroup reader. > joe
From: Hector Santos on 24 Feb 2010 19:23 Ajay Kalra wrote: > On Feb 24, 2:43 pm, Joseph M. Newcomer <newco...(a)flounder.com> wrote: >> The design of the forums could be called "amateurish" but that gives a bad name to amateur >> designers everywhere, and constitutes defamation of character for amateurs. >> >> I find them completely and utterly unusable. > > I dont understand why we need forums when we have NGs. What exactly do > they offer that cant be done in a NG? The issues and reasons are wide. I have to be careful of what I say here since this (mail systems) has been our business for the past 25+ years, but I can note few things: 1) Forums offer a different alternative threaded view of mail. There are pros and cons which can provide the strategic differences by different vendors. More below. 2) Microsoft is exhibiting both a direction and a common mistake made by many which unless they already are considering this, can come back to haunt them. It has to done correctly. More below. Forums: For lack of a better term, forums, the proper term is Topical View, has been the direction with many web based mail systems. Its a "display" variation of the traditional threaded mail model and I have not seen one (except us) that does not offer anything but a web portal. Traditionally, there two displays: - Flat starting at the last read pointer (LPR) pointer - threaded (tree) Think of how the back end has to be design for both offerings and think in how display system will be able to do it from the data it gets from the server. The first one is faster since the backend only needs to scan and present where you last left all. Thread designs require backtrack scanning to produce the full thread. Topical displays shows the initial thread message (first level of tree) only with a flat display of the follow up messages for the topic when you click it. So the scanning pressure is by demand. User-Support vs Vendor Support Microsoft is unlike other companies. They have a diverse group of customers with a diverse set of needs with a high diverse technology suite that dictates a diverse support system. They need a support manager that understands these needs now and into the future. Overall, one of the problems with a company with diverse offerings is the problem of single sourcing the support system. Microsoft is not exception here. When they begin to separate newsgroups (NNTP) system and private forum (HTML) system, it began to create redundancy and a difference in quality support. There is also legal concerns. The newsgroups are USER SUPPORTED with a lesser legal obligation by the product vendor. The concept of a "Team" or "MVP" support is one way to offer indirect support method without the legal hassle. With the private forum, the legal obligation increases. Now you have include employee-based support or involvement. Its going to be a tricky thing for them. But it depends a lot on how they do it. For example, if they begin to offer a fee/tier-based electronic support system, this can negatively impact the developer market at the lower end tier which would be expense for employee based tech support. Yet, for fee paying developers, the expectation for timely solutions will be high. In addition, using non-employee MVP in this framework can be problematic. For example, no longer could a MVP get into arguments and debates with fee-paying developers. Tom Peter's principles still applies, "The Customer is always Right!" On the other hands, Peter's did have a variant principle years later which many big companies have applied today, "The Customer is already right.... Sometimes!" which is based on how valuable you to the vendor when it comes to customer support. If you don't pay fees and if you are a trouble maker and difficult to appease, it is better to lose you as a customer then to waste time with you. You could not do this in user-supported forums. I agree with Joe, if microsoft abandons the public newsgroups, it will be very sad for thousands of developers. Yet, as mentioned above, the issue of redundancy and duplicity will occur if they wish to provide a add-valued vendor support system. It doesn't have to be problem. simple by our product (cheap plug) <g> and they single source they mail system for both newsgroups and forums, public, private, subscription based or free, and best part of it is that is multi-device/portal ready, telnet, dialup, browser, news reader, etc. One conference can be expose multiple ways. And it comes with SDK/API too! -- HLS
From: Hector Santos on 24 Feb 2010 19:40 Tom Serface wrote: > Hi Joe, > > Not to beat it up or anything, but I think newsgroups are easy for guys > like us, but for the common person they are becoming more problematic. > They are difficult to find, later versions of Windows don't even come > with a reader, and users have to set up ports and stuff to get to them. > Websites are easy to get to in any browser with a link. So, for the > users, the setup is much easier. > > I like newsgroups too, but I confess it's mostly since I'm used to them > and it's easier for me to do thinks offline. > > Tom Agree. Part of this is "training" the customer base and mindset and with more dependency on the IDE, the more they can add direct web support to it which was already done to a degree to my horrible surprise. My surprise is more that the new generation don't know the difference, nor recognize it is a "new normal" but just "normal." -- HLS
From: Joseph M. Newcomer on 24 Feb 2010 21:24
But you're confusing findability with presentation. I'm talking here about presentation. If the API is exposed, anyone can use any browser to read it, and put up with the fifth-or-sixth-rate interface, but third-party developers can build real programs. I never had to "set up a port" when I started reading newsgroups; I got a newsgroup reader, installed it, and it ran. The issue is entirely one of presentation. joe On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 15:42:41 -0800, "Tom Serface" <tom(a)camaswood.com> wrote: >Hi Joe, > >Not to beat it up or anything, but I think newsgroups are easy for guys like >us, but for the common person they are becoming more problematic. They are >difficult to find, later versions of Windows don't even come with a reader, >and users have to set up ports and stuff to get to them. Websites are easy >to get to in any browser with a link. So, for the users, the setup is much >easier. > >I like newsgroups too, but I confess it's mostly since I'm used to them and >it's easier for me to do thinks offline. > >Tom > >"Joseph M. Newcomer" <newcomer(a)flounder.com> wrote in message >news:4t9bo5df2guk36gb2588c42cfpfkkm34rv(a)4ax.com... >> The issue is not what they do with the information; it is how badly it is >> presented. It >> looks like HTML of twenty years ago. >> >> I have been told that my website looks like it was designed by a >> 12-year-old. My response >> is that I am not, and have no pretensions of being, a Web designer. In >> fact, I don't want >> anything to do with the concept. I'm not good at it, and don't care. >> >> But user interfaces (which my Web site is NOT) take a lot of careful >> engineering. There >> are workflow issues, for example. Products like Forte Agent are a >> pleasure to use. They >> have spent long years engineering a user-friendly interface that maximizes >> productivity in >> using the newsgroup. The forums, on the other hand, were not "designed"; >> they were >> clearly "thrown together", as far as OUR interface is concerned. I don't >> care about ads >> (in fact, if I could turn them off, I would). I don't care if Microsoft >> wants to do data >> mining; that's their problem. Even spam has not been a serious problem on >> our newsgroups. >> I care about having a first-rate user experience. So while on the one >> side Microsoft >> blathers about "having a rich multimedia Web experience", they can't even >> produce a >> fourth-rate Web experience in the forums. It is not smooth, it is not >> easy, it is just a >> few widgets and some JavaScript tossed haphazardly at a REAL problem. >> This does not lead >> to a first-rate experience. It *does* produce a first-rate disaster, >> compared to any >> decent newsgroup reader. >> joe > Joseph M. Newcomer [MVP] email: newcomer(a)flounder.com Web: http://www.flounder.com MVP Tips: http://www.flounder.com/mvp_tips.htm |