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From: Jerry Avins on 17 Mar 2010 14:50 steveu wrote: >> steveu wrote: >> >> ... >> >>> A law for engineers course is hardly going to substitute for a law > degree. >>> However, I have too often seen engineers stumbling into trouble because > of >>> a complete lack of legal grounding. This is especially true for people > in >>> small organisations, where there is not a strong framework around them > to >>> protect them. >> All an engineer needs to know about law is that he needs to ask, not > assume. > > This presupposes that people spot when they are assuming. America has some > of the more interesting legislation for surprising the unwary engineer. > Have you ever looked at engineers after a training session from a lawyer on > something like RICO or FCPA for engineers? They typically realise they may > have been doing some legally iffy things for years, without even > questioning whether there was anything they should be asking questions > about. > >>> I don't know as much about my body as a doctor. However, if I lacked > the >>> grounding to even grasp what he is talking about, I would feel > extremely >>> vulnerable - as indeed I would be in a world where a fair percentage of >>> private doctors are about as trustworthy as politicians. >> Sure. Where did you learn enough about your body to understand your >> doctor, in hygiene class? In any class? Probably not. > > Nothing needs to be learned in college. Clearly, anything can be learned in > other ways. You and I didn't study DSP at college, because nobody ran DSP > courses back then. That didn't stop us learning - in some small part by > building the foundations of the DSP business. The key thing with law for > engineers is engineers ought to be introduced to its implications at the > earliest possible stage. A several hour course as a small part of an > engineering degree program seems like the ideal place. "Several hours" is an week of evening reading or a seminar, not a course. It seems like a good idea. Jerry -- Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen, and thinking what nobody has thought. .. Albert Szent-Gyorgi �����������������������������������������������������������������������
From: steveu on 17 Mar 2010 21:02 >steveu wrote: >>> steveu wrote: >>> >>> ... >>> >>>> A law for engineers course is hardly going to substitute for a law >> degree. >>>> However, I have too often seen engineers stumbling into trouble because >> of >>>> a complete lack of legal grounding. This is especially true for people >> in >>>> small organisations, where there is not a strong framework around them >> to >>>> protect them. >>> All an engineer needs to know about law is that he needs to ask, not >> assume. >> >> This presupposes that people spot when they are assuming. America has some >> of the more interesting legislation for surprising the unwary engineer. >> Have you ever looked at engineers after a training session from a lawyer on >> something like RICO or FCPA for engineers? They typically realise they may >> have been doing some legally iffy things for years, without even >> questioning whether there was anything they should be asking questions >> about. >> >>>> I don't know as much about my body as a doctor. However, if I lacked >> the >>>> grounding to even grasp what he is talking about, I would feel >> extremely >>>> vulnerable - as indeed I would be in a world where a fair percentage of >>>> private doctors are about as trustworthy as politicians. >>> Sure. Where did you learn enough about your body to understand your >>> doctor, in hygiene class? In any class? Probably not. >> >> Nothing needs to be learned in college. Clearly, anything can be learned in >> other ways. You and I didn't study DSP at college, because nobody ran DSP >> courses back then. That didn't stop us learning - in some small part by >> building the foundations of the DSP business. The key thing with law for >> engineers is engineers ought to be introduced to its implications at the >> earliest possible stage. A several hour course as a small part of an >> engineering degree program seems like the ideal place. > >"Several hours" is an week of evening reading or a seminar, not a >course. It seems like a good idea. Let's not get into a "my courses are smaller and finer grained than your courses" argument. When I was at college our biggest courses counted for only 1/2 a unit. The whole unit was based on physics degrees, where the unit system started. They run a small number of broadly based courses. The engineering faculty ran many more smaller, more focussed, courses. Everyone had to fit into the physics scheme, to keep the unit system common across the whole university. Steve
From: Rune Allnor on 18 Mar 2010 04:08 On 17 Mar, 00:18, Rune Allnor <all...(a)tele.ntnu.no> wrote: > It's a fundamental human trait *not* to question, second- > guess, or interpret instructions issued by percieved > authorities, and instead do exactly as one is told. And, it turns out, it's not only me who happen to have such views. A local news page http://www.abcnyheter.no/verden/100317/torturerte-fordi-det-var-tv?autoplay=1 reports a recent experiment in a TV gameshow setting. The idea is similar to the (in)famous Milgram experiment half a century ago, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment This time with gameshow participants dealing out misery and mayhem to what they think are adversaries in a gameshow setting. The story contains a comment made by a participant of jewish descent, "Sophie", whose grandparents were persecuted by the nazis: " Helt siden jeg var en liten jente har jeg alltid lurt på hva som fikk nazistene til å gjøre som de gjorde. Hvordan kunne de følge slike ordre? Og der var jeg, og fulgte ordrene selv" "Since I was a child I always wondered what made the nazis act as they did. How could they obey such orders? And there I was, obeying similar orders." I have seen this story mentioned in a number of international news media the past few hours. Google for something like Milgram + "Zone Extreme" (name of the show) + "France 2" (the TV station that produced the experiment) to find your local version. Rune
From: Jerry Avins on 18 Mar 2010 04:17 Rune Allnor wrote: > On 17 Mar, 00:18, Rune Allnor <all...(a)tele.ntnu.no> wrote: > >> It's a fundamental human trait *not* to question, second- >> guess, or interpret instructions issued by percieved >> authorities, and instead do exactly as one is told. > > And, it turns out, it's not only me who happen to have such views. > > A local news page > > http://www.abcnyheter.no/verden/100317/torturerte-fordi-det-var-tv?autoplay=1 > > reports a recent experiment in a TV gameshow setting. > The idea is similar to the (in)famous Milgram experiment > half a century ago, > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment > > This time with gameshow participants dealing out misery and > mayhem to what they think are adversaries in a gameshow setting. > > The story contains a comment made by a participant of jewish descent, > "Sophie", whose grandparents were persecuted by the nazis: > > "� Helt siden jeg var en liten jente har jeg alltid lurt p� hva som > fikk nazistene til � gj�re som de gjorde. Hvordan kunne de f�lge > slike ordre? Og der var jeg, og fulgte ordrene selv" > > "Since I was a child I always wondered what made the nazis act > as they did. How could they obey such orders? And there I was, > obeying similar orders." > > I have seen this story mentioned in a number of international > news media the past few hours. Google for something like > > Milgram + "Zone Extreme" (name of the show) + "France 2" > (the TV station that produced the experiment) > > to find your local version. Not all of us do -- or would do -- that. I have no sympathy for Sophie or any of the others. Jerry -- Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen, and thinking what nobody has thought. .. Albert Szent-Gyorgi �����������������������������������������������������������������������
From: Rune Allnor on 18 Mar 2010 04:23
On 18 Mar, 09:17, Jerry Avins <j...(a)ieee.org> wrote: > Rune Allnor wrote: > > On 17 Mar, 00:18, Rune Allnor <all...(a)tele.ntnu.no> wrote: > > >> It's a fundamental human trait *not* to question, second- > >> guess, or interpret instructions issued by percieved > >> authorities, and instead do exactly as one is told. > > > And, it turns out, it's not only me who happen to have such views. > > > A local news page > > >http://www.abcnyheter.no/verden/100317/torturerte-fordi-det-var-tv?au... > > > reports a recent experiment in a TV gameshow setting. > > The idea is similar to the (in)famous Milgram experiment > > half a century ago, > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment > > > This time with gameshow participants dealing out misery and > > mayhem to what they think are adversaries in a gameshow setting. > > > The story contains a comment made by a participant of jewish descent, > > "Sophie", whose grandparents were persecuted by the nazis: > > > " Helt siden jeg var en liten jente har jeg alltid lurt p hva som > > fikk nazistene til gj re som de gjorde. Hvordan kunne de f lge > > slike ordre? Og der var jeg, og fulgte ordrene selv" > > > "Since I was a child I always wondered what made the nazis act > > as they did. How could they obey such orders? And there I was, > > obeying similar orders." > > > I have seen this story mentioned in a number of international > > news media the past few hours. Google for something like > > > Milgram + "Zone Extreme" (name of the show) + "France 2" > > (the TV station that produced the experiment) > > > to find your local version. > > Not all of us do -- or would do -- that. I have no sympathy for Sophie > or any of the others. The numbers mentioned in that article is that 80 people were asked to partcipate. Of those, only 16 (20%) refused to play. One can assume that a number of those who refused already knew about the Milgram experiment, and refused because they recognized the experiment as such. So it's safe to assume that << 20% of the population would refuse to participate in a similar activity, if asked for real and not in the experiment. Not to mention if there was some real penalty associated with not participating. Rune |