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From: brent on 18 Mar 2010 07:33
On Mar 18, 4:17 am, Jerry Avins <j...(a)ieee.org> wrote:
> Rune Allnor wrote:
> > On 17 Mar, 00:18, Rune Allnor <all...(a)tele.ntnu.no> wrote:
>
> >> It's a fundamental human trait *not* to question, second-
> >> guess, or interpret instructions issued by  percieved
> >> authorities, and instead do exactly as one is told.
>
> > And, it turns out, it's not only me who happen to have such views.
>
> > A local news page
>
> >http://www.abcnyheter.no/verden/100317/torturerte-fordi-det-var-tv?au...
>
> > reports a recent experiment in a TV gameshow setting.
> > The idea is similar to the (in)famous Milgram experiment
> > half a century  ago,
>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
>
> > This time with gameshow participants dealing out misery and
> > mayhem to what they think are adversaries in a gameshow setting.
>
> > The story contains a comment made by a participant of jewish descent,
> > "Sophie", whose grandparents were persecuted by the nazis:
>
> > " Helt siden jeg var en liten jente har jeg alltid lurt p hva som
> > fikk nazistene til gj re som de gjorde. Hvordan kunne de f lge
> > slike ordre? Og der var jeg, og fulgte ordrene selv"
>
> > "Since I was a child I always wondered what made the nazis act
> > as they did. How could they obey such orders? And there I was,
> > obeying similar orders."
>
> > I have seen this story mentioned in a number of international
> > news media the past few hours. Google for something like
>
> > Milgram + "Zone Extreme" (name of the show) + "France 2"
> > (the TV station that produced the experiment)
>
> > to find your local version.
>
> Not all of us do -- or would do -- that. I have no sympathy for Sophie
> or any of the others.
>
> Jerry
> --
> Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen, and thinking what
> nobody has thought.    .. Albert Szent-Gyorgi

> ..........I have no sympathy ...............
>


Sounds like you might fit right in.
From: Jerry Avins on 18 Mar 2010 18:47
brent wrote:
> On Mar 18, 4:17 am, Jerry Avins <j...(a)ieee.org> wrote:
>> Rune Allnor wrote:
>>> On 17 Mar, 00:18, Rune Allnor <all...(a)tele.ntnu.no> wrote:
>>>> It's a fundamental human trait *not* to question, second-
>>>> guess, or interpret instructions issued by percieved
>>>> authorities, and instead do exactly as one is told.
>>> And, it turns out, it's not only me who happen to have such views.
>>> A local news page
>>> http://www.abcnyheter.no/verden/100317/torturerte-fordi-det-var-tv?au...
>>> reports a recent experiment in a TV gameshow setting.
>>> The idea is similar to the (in)famous Milgram experiment
>>> half a century ago,
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
>>> This time with gameshow participants dealing out misery and
>>> mayhem to what they think are adversaries in a gameshow setting.
>>> The story contains a comment made by a participant of jewish descent,
>>> "Sophie", whose grandparents were persecuted by the nazis:
>>> " Helt siden jeg var en liten jente har jeg alltid lurt p hva som
>>> fikk nazistene til gj re som de gjorde. Hvordan kunne de f lge
>>> slike ordre? Og der var jeg, og fulgte ordrene selv"
>>> "Since I was a child I always wondered what made the nazis act
>>> as they did. How could they obey such orders? And there I was,
>>> obeying similar orders."
>>> I have seen this story mentioned in a number of international
>>> news media the past few hours. Google for something like
>>> Milgram + "Zone Extreme" (name of the show) + "France 2"
>>> (the TV station that produced the experiment)
>>> to find your local version.
>> Not all of us do -- or would do -- that. I have no sympathy for Sophie
>> or any of the others.
>>
>> Jerry
>> --
>> Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen, and thinking what
>> nobody has thought. .. Albert Szent-Gyorgi
>
>> ..........I have no sympathy ...............
>>
>
>
> Sounds like you might fit right in.

Please explain. I fit into my pants pretty well, but that's probably not
what you mean.

Jerry
--
Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen, and thinking what
nobody has thought. .. Albert Szent-Gyorgi
�����������������������������������������������������������������������
From: brent on 18 Mar 2010 19:14
On Mar 18, 6:47 pm, Jerry Avins <j...(a)ieee.org> wrote:
> brent wrote:
> > On Mar 18, 4:17 am, Jerry Avins <j...(a)ieee.org> wrote:
> >> Rune Allnor wrote:
> >>> On 17 Mar, 00:18, Rune Allnor <all...(a)tele.ntnu.no> wrote:
> >>>> It's a fundamental human trait *not* to question, second-
> >>>> guess, or interpret instructions issued by  percieved
> >>>> authorities, and instead do exactly as one is told.
> >>> And, it turns out, it's not only me who happen to have such views.
> >>> A local news page
> >>>http://www.abcnyheter.no/verden/100317/torturerte-fordi-det-var-tv?au....
> >>> reports a recent experiment in a TV gameshow setting.
> >>> The idea is similar to the (in)famous Milgram experiment
> >>> half a century  ago,
> >>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
> >>> This time with gameshow participants dealing out misery and
> >>> mayhem to what they think are adversaries in a gameshow setting.
> >>> The story contains a comment made by a participant of jewish descent,
> >>> "Sophie", whose grandparents were persecuted by the nazis:
> >>> " Helt siden jeg var en liten jente har jeg alltid lurt p hva som
> >>> fikk nazistene til gj re som de gjorde. Hvordan kunne de f lge
> >>> slike ordre? Og der var jeg, og fulgte ordrene selv"
> >>> "Since I was a child I always wondered what made the nazis act
> >>> as they did. How could they obey such orders? And there I was,
> >>> obeying similar orders."
> >>> I have seen this story mentioned in a number of international
> >>> news media the past few hours. Google for something like
> >>> Milgram + "Zone Extreme" (name of the show) + "France 2"
> >>> (the TV station that produced the experiment)
> >>> to find your local version.
> >> Not all of us do -- or would do -- that. I have no sympathy for Sophie
> >> or any of the others.
>
> >> Jerry
> >> --
> >> Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen, and thinking what
> >> nobody has thought.    .. Albert Szent-Gyorgi
>
> >> ..........I have no sympathy ...............
>
> > Sounds like you might fit right in.
>
> Please explain. I fit into my pants pretty well, but that's probably not
> what you mean.
>
> Jerry
> --
> Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen, and thinking what
> nobody has thought.    .. Albert Szent-Gyorgi
> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Not picking on you too much Jerry. You are a nice guy.

But it just struck me as funny to imply that you would never do that
and then say you have no sympathy for the particular person that did
it but upon reflection realized she fell for hurting someone. At the
moment she did it she herself had no sympathy for the person she
zapped.

From: Jerry Avins on 18 Mar 2010 22:25
brent wrote:

...

> But it just struck me as funny to imply that you would never do that
> and then say you have no sympathy for the particular person that did
> it but upon reflection realized she fell for hurting someone. At the
> moment she did it she herself had no sympathy for the person she
> zapped.

I think you misconstrued my meaning. Maybe I wasn't clear. "Not all of
us do -- or would do -- that" -- would inflict pain or harm to satisfy
an experimenter or game-show organizer. "I have no sympathy for Sophie
or any of the others" -- others who may feel guilty for having been
caught up in mob violence, even it it was sham.

Jerry
--
Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen, and thinking what
nobody has thought. .. Albert Szent-Gyorgi
�����������������������������������������������������������������������
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