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From: Warren Oates on 12 Aug 2010 15:38
In article
<michelle-2A1595.18033511082010(a)reserved-multicast-range-not-delegated.e
xample.com>,
Michelle Steiner <michelle(a)michelle.org> wrote:

>
> The Muslims (actually, their pagan ancestors) had conquered lands that the
> Romans had conquered from Judea. The Hebrews in turn had conquered the
> lands from peoples who no longer existed.

I blame the Chalcoliths.
--
Very old woody beets will never cook tender.
-- Fannie Farmer
From: John Varela on 12 Aug 2010 17:00
On Wed, 11 Aug 2010 21:46:16 UTC, Wes Groleau
<Groleau+news(a)FreeShell.org> wrote:

> On 08-11-2010 16:50, John Varela wrote:
> > The Muslims had conquered Christian lands and the Crusaders were
> > trying to take them back. Perfectly normal by the standards of those
>
> One could argue _whose_ lands they were until the cows
> stand on two feet and learn to type. Certainly many Jews
> might claim that the Muslims had conquered _Jewish_ lands
> and the Crusaders were _not_ trying to help the Jews get them back.

It was the pagan Romans who conquered the Jews. The Romans later
became Christians. The Muslims conquered the Christians. The
Crusaders had temporary successes in driving the Muslims back out.

It annoys me that people cite the Crusades as if they were the
origin of religious wars, when they were not. That's just Muslim
propaganda together with the eastern Mediterranean habit of
fostering resentments for millennia. (The Iranians are probably
still mad at the Greeks because of Alexander.)

For the origin of wars of religion, blame monotheism and the idea
that there is only one true G*d, he is our G*d, and all the rest of
you are wrong, you are infidels, and so it's all right if we kill
you. I think you'll be hard put to name a religious war that took
place before the rise of Christianity and Islam, other than maybe
the first Jewish revolt.

When it comes to the Mid East, I say we give the whole place back to
the Turks and let them keep it under control the way they did before
WW1.

--
John Varela
From: John Varela on 12 Aug 2010 17:09
On Thu, 12 Aug 2010 01:03:35 UTC, Michelle Steiner
<michelle(a)michelle.org> wrote:

> In article <51W5y0sPNk52-pn2-0qGK7wqdhvuh(a)localhost>,
> "John Varela" <newlamps(a)verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > The Muslims had conquered Christian lands and the Crusaders were trying
> > to take them back.
>
> The Muslims (actually, their pagan ancestors) had conquered lands that the
> Romans had conquered from Judea. The Hebrews in turn had conquered the
> lands from peoples who no longer existed.

Even if you believe the Exodus story, surely you don't think that
the Hebrews succeeded in carrying out a 100% genocide rather than,
like most conquerors, dominating and then merging with the conquered
people. Some scholars deny the Joshua story and argue that in fact
the Hebrew culture arose out of the indigenous Canaanite culture.
Either way, surely a significant part of the Hebrew population had
Canaanite origins. Not to mention the Edomites who were forcibly
converted to Judaism.

--
John Varela
From: John Varela on 13 Aug 2010 14:38
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 14:01:58 UTC, Michelle Steiner
<michelle(a)michelle.org> wrote:

> In article <51W5y0sPNk52-pn2-NEysIrslR6YR(a)localhost>,
> "John Varela" <newlamps(a)verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > I think you'll be hard put to name a religious war that took place
> > before the rise of Christianity and Islam, other than maybe the first
> > Jewish revolt.
>
> The Hellenic Persian conquering of Judea that led to the Maccabean revolt.

Was that a religious war or just another war of conquest?

--
John Varela
From: John Varela on 13 Aug 2010 14:56
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 14:00:11 UTC, Michelle Steiner
<michelle(a)michelle.org> wrote:

> In article <51W5y0sPNk52-pn2-ixRdsvbpNy0I(a)localhost>,
> "John Varela" <newlamps(a)verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > Even if you believe the Exodus story, surely you don't think that the
> > Hebrews succeeded in carrying out a 100% genocide
>
> I didn't say that they did. There are no peoples today that can be
> identified as being the pre-Hebraic peoples living there.

I was responding to your "The Muslims (actually, their pagan
ancestors) had conquered lands that the Romans had conquered from
Judea. The Hebrews in turn had conquered the lands from peoples who
no longer existed."

Regarding your first sentence, I believe you will find that it was
Muslims who, in 638, took Jerusalem (and Judea) from the Byzantine
Empire.

Regarding your second sentence, I got tangled in the tenses and I
thought you were saying that the Canaanites no longer existed after
the Hebrew conquest (if there was such a thing) of Canaan.

--
John Varela
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