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From: Joerg on 17 Jul 2010 13:41 Frank Buss wrote: > Joerg wrote: > >> Not recently. I often use needles, the ones that come with higher end >> shirts. You know, where Murphy says that you'll always forget one when >> trying it on and ... OUCH. Many can be soldered to (not all) and then >> occasionally I use a rubber band to tug a bit on the cable or the needle >> so it won't fly out. > > I have some coils of silver coated copper. 1 mm diameter are nice for > soldering stable test points and 0.4 mm is useful, if you don't have much > space (or for dead bug style prototyping). Of course, not as easy and good > as a ready made test points with a loop and plastic ring for easier > mounting. > Yes, I have those coils as well. In fact, using one right now to make a new holding loop for our pool thermometer :-) -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
From: m II on 17 Jul 2010 13:49 Frank Buss wrote: > you are right, it is easy for me to be wrong when estimating volumens > without calculating :-) Volumens? That must be like a brightness adjustment for a light source...neat. mike
From: krw on 18 Jul 2010 11:25 On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 17:21:23 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: >> On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 15:56:12 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >> >>> krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: >>>> On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 09:38:50 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>> >>>>> krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: >>>>>> On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 09:11:49 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: >>>>>>>> On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 06:33:23 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Frank Buss wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I believe Newark carries them. >>>>>>>>>> Digikey has it, too. Search for "keystone test points" and you'll get a >>>>>>>>>> nice selection for diameter, color etc. Looks like it is popular, because >>>>>>>>>> some types are available in container quantities :-) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=5002K-ND >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks, I didn't know they carried these. Unfortunately such test points >>>>>>>>> are comparatively large, for 0.040" holes and similar. >>>>>>>> Come on Joerg. They're only three for ten bucks. You can afford them! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <yikes!> BTW, we use something similar for less than $.10 each. ...and those >>>>>>>> are usually deleted when production settles down. >>>>>>> I didn't say I can't afford them :-) >>>>>> ;-) >>>>>> >>>>>>> They are just a bit large for modern SMT layouts. Technologically a bit >>>>>>> long in the tooth. >>>>>> We use them on power supplies and a couple of communications lines (RS-422). >>>>>> They're useful for scope grounds. >>>>>> >>>>>> There once were connectors that would accept a scope tip. Has anyone seen >>>>>> those recently? They were *expensive* but for test jigs they would be useful. >>>>> Not recently. I often use needles, the ones that come with higher end >>>>> shirts. You know, where Murphy says that you'll always forget one when >>>>> trying it on and ... OUCH. Many can be soldered to (not all) and then >>>>> occasionally I use a rubber band to tug a bit on the cable or the needle >>>>> so it won't fly out. >>>> You mean "pins". Needles have a slot for the thread. ;-) >>>> >>> Sorry, yes, pins. As you can see it's my wife who does all the sewing >>> around here :-) >> >> You think I do? There is a reason SWMBO, MBO. ;-) >> > >But tonight I'm doing the cookin', standing near the charcoal Weber at 100F. She left you outside in that condition? >>>> Never thought of them. One "trick" I do use is a coiled up paperclip around >>>> the scope ground bent around and cut even with the center pin to make a ground >>>> probe. >>>> >>> I found most paper clip wire to be too thick to get into vias. Pins or >>> sewing needles are pointy so you can always wedge them in good enough >>> that they hold for a while. >> >> Wedge them into what? Unfortunately, our "test pads" don't have vias in them. >> Probing can really be a PITA, but it saves space. The grounds normally aren't >> test pads, anyway. >> > >Then just put vias in them. Most of the time that won't cost extra in >PCB fab. The problem is space on the other side (blind vias are expensive). We have a couple of boards are packed, one critically in places. <snip> >>> And that's only for formal meetings, BoD, due diligence or when finance >>> guys are there. Other than that it's always jeans and regular shirts. At >>> home T-shirts and in the winter Lumberjack shirts. >> >> I wear the same shirts at home or in front of the customer. Well, the ones I >> wear at home are the ones I wore in front of the customer a few years ago. ;-) >> > >Different here. We rarely run the A/C so I wear short and T-shirts. The >office often hovers around 90F. When doing heavy-duty SPICE a lot more. I wear them year around. AC or not. I don't own any others. >>> It does make sense to buy quality stuff. Cheap shirts can look bad after >>> just a dozen washes while good ones last many years. >> >> Yes, but you don't have to spend a lot of money on them. >> > >I'd rather have stuff that lasts. Same shirts, different day. >>> But hey, I knew a guy who had more money that Uncle Scrooge, was >>> chauffeured around in a Bentley, yet he usually ate herring and >>> potatoes. Now with food, we sometimes splurge. Same with beer, you won't >>> find any cheap ones here. >> >> ...but you do go cheap on electronics. ;-) >> > >Yes, there's always a cost calculator running inside my brain. Even when >working on hi-rel stuff where cost really doesn't matter, it simply >won't turn off. Once a client asked me what the electronics would cost, >more casually. "45 bucks" ... some jaws dropped ... "We can't even buy a >decent wrench for that, heck, our coffee maker cost more". We're on a cost kick now. The owner decided that it's his money. Unfortunately, a lot of the decisions were made long ago and aren't easy or cheap to change now. It's tough when the rules change after the game is in play. >> >> Just bustin' your hump... > > >That's my wife's domain :-) I didn't say it the other way around. ;-)
From: Joerg on 18 Jul 2010 12:52 krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: > On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 17:21:23 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: > >> krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: >>> On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 15:56:12 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >>> >>>> krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: >>>>> On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 09:38:50 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: >>>>>>> On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 09:11:49 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 06:33:23 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Frank Buss wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I believe Newark carries them. >>>>>>>>>>> Digikey has it, too. Search for "keystone test points" and you'll get a >>>>>>>>>>> nice selection for diameter, color etc. Looks like it is popular, because >>>>>>>>>>> some types are available in container quantities :-) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=5002K-ND >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks, I didn't know they carried these. Unfortunately such test points >>>>>>>>>> are comparatively large, for 0.040" holes and similar. >>>>>>>>> Come on Joerg. They're only three for ten bucks. You can afford them! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> <yikes!> BTW, we use something similar for less than $.10 each. ...and those >>>>>>>>> are usually deleted when production settles down. >>>>>>>> I didn't say I can't afford them :-) >>>>>>> ;-) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> They are just a bit large for modern SMT layouts. Technologically a bit >>>>>>>> long in the tooth. >>>>>>> We use them on power supplies and a couple of communications lines (RS-422). >>>>>>> They're useful for scope grounds. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There once were connectors that would accept a scope tip. Has anyone seen >>>>>>> those recently? They were *expensive* but for test jigs they would be useful. >>>>>> Not recently. I often use needles, the ones that come with higher end >>>>>> shirts. You know, where Murphy says that you'll always forget one when >>>>>> trying it on and ... OUCH. Many can be soldered to (not all) and then >>>>>> occasionally I use a rubber band to tug a bit on the cable or the needle >>>>>> so it won't fly out. >>>>> You mean "pins". Needles have a slot for the thread. ;-) >>>>> >>>> Sorry, yes, pins. As you can see it's my wife who does all the sewing >>>> around here :-) >>> You think I do? There is a reason SWMBO, MBO. ;-) >>> >> But tonight I'm doing the cookin', standing near the charcoal Weber at 100F. > > She left you outside in that condition? > As long as there's food that's ok :-) >>>>> Never thought of them. One "trick" I do use is a coiled up paperclip around >>>>> the scope ground bent around and cut even with the center pin to make a ground >>>>> probe. >>>>> >>>> I found most paper clip wire to be too thick to get into vias. Pins or >>>> sewing needles are pointy so you can always wedge them in good enough >>>> that they hold for a while. >>> Wedge them into what? Unfortunately, our "test pads" don't have vias in them. >>> Probing can really be a PITA, but it saves space. The grounds normally aren't >>> test pads, anyway. >>> >> Then just put vias in them. Most of the time that won't cost extra in >> PCB fab. > > The problem is space on the other side (blind vias are expensive). We have a > couple of boards are packed, one critically in places. > Ok, yeah, then forget it. > <snip> > >>>> And that's only for formal meetings, BoD, due diligence or when finance >>>> guys are there. Other than that it's always jeans and regular shirts. At >>>> home T-shirts and in the winter Lumberjack shirts. >>> I wear the same shirts at home or in front of the customer. Well, the ones I >>> wear at home are the ones I wore in front of the customer a few years ago. ;-) >>> >> Different here. We rarely run the A/C so I wear short and T-shirts. The >> office often hovers around 90F. When doing heavy-duty SPICE a lot more. > > I wear them year around. AC or not. I don't own any others. > Wow. I'd be drenched in sweat and it would not be a pretty picture. >>>> It does make sense to buy quality stuff. Cheap shirts can look bad after >>>> just a dozen washes while good ones last many years. >>> Yes, but you don't have to spend a lot of money on them. >>> >> I'd rather have stuff that lasts. > > Same shirts, different day. > >>>> But hey, I knew a guy who had more money that Uncle Scrooge, was >>>> chauffeured around in a Bentley, yet he usually ate herring and >>>> potatoes. Now with food, we sometimes splurge. Same with beer, you won't >>>> find any cheap ones here. >>> ...but you do go cheap on electronics. ;-) >>> >> Yes, there's always a cost calculator running inside my brain. Even when >> working on hi-rel stuff where cost really doesn't matter, it simply >> won't turn off. Once a client asked me what the electronics would cost, >> more casually. "45 bucks" ... some jaws dropped ... "We can't even buy a >> decent wrench for that, heck, our coffee maker cost more". > > We're on a cost kick now. The owner decided that it's his money. > Unfortunately, a lot of the decisions were made long ago and aren't easy or > cheap to change now. It's tough when the rules change after the game is in > play. > Mostly that will result in a complete redesign. That is when the NRE that entails must be factored in, to see how fast the effort truly amortizes. Anything north of four years is generally frowned upon. >>> Just bustin' your hump... >> >> That's my wife's domain :-) > > I didn't say it the other way around. ;-) :-) -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
From: krw on 18 Jul 2010 16:06
On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 09:52:00 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: >> On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 17:21:23 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >> >>> krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: >>>> On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 15:56:12 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>> >>>>> krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: >>>>>> On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 09:38:50 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: >>>>>>>> On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 09:11:49 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> krw(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 06:33:23 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Frank Buss wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I believe Newark carries them. >>>>>>>>>>>> Digikey has it, too. Search for "keystone test points" and you'll get a >>>>>>>>>>>> nice selection for diameter, color etc. Looks like it is popular, because >>>>>>>>>>>> some types are available in container quantities :-) >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=5002K-ND >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, I didn't know they carried these. Unfortunately such test points >>>>>>>>>>> are comparatively large, for 0.040" holes and similar. >>>>>>>>>> Come on Joerg. They're only three for ten bucks. You can afford them! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> <yikes!> BTW, we use something similar for less than $.10 each. ...and those >>>>>>>>>> are usually deleted when production settles down. >>>>>>>>> I didn't say I can't afford them :-) >>>>>>>> ;-) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> They are just a bit large for modern SMT layouts. Technologically a bit >>>>>>>>> long in the tooth. >>>>>>>> We use them on power supplies and a couple of communications lines (RS-422). >>>>>>>> They're useful for scope grounds. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There once were connectors that would accept a scope tip. Has anyone seen >>>>>>>> those recently? They were *expensive* but for test jigs they would be useful. >>>>>>> Not recently. I often use needles, the ones that come with higher end >>>>>>> shirts. You know, where Murphy says that you'll always forget one when >>>>>>> trying it on and ... OUCH. Many can be soldered to (not all) and then >>>>>>> occasionally I use a rubber band to tug a bit on the cable or the needle >>>>>>> so it won't fly out. >>>>>> You mean "pins". Needles have a slot for the thread. ;-) >>>>>> >>>>> Sorry, yes, pins. As you can see it's my wife who does all the sewing >>>>> around here :-) >>>> You think I do? There is a reason SWMBO, MBO. ;-) >>>> >>> But tonight I'm doing the cookin', standing near the charcoal Weber at 100F. >> >> She left you outside in that condition? >> > >As long as there's food that's ok :-) Man does not live by food alone. ;-) >>>>>> Never thought of them. One "trick" I do use is a coiled up paperclip around >>>>>> the scope ground bent around and cut even with the center pin to make a ground >>>>>> probe. >>>>>> >>>>> I found most paper clip wire to be too thick to get into vias. Pins or >>>>> sewing needles are pointy so you can always wedge them in good enough >>>>> that they hold for a while. >>>> Wedge them into what? Unfortunately, our "test pads" don't have vias in them. >>>> Probing can really be a PITA, but it saves space. The grounds normally aren't >>>> test pads, anyway. >>>> >>> Then just put vias in them. Most of the time that won't cost extra in >>> PCB fab. >> >> The problem is space on the other side (blind vias are expensive). We have a >> couple of boards are packed, one critically in places. >> > >Ok, yeah, then forget it. Yeah, there is an EMI shield and everything has to fit under it. I'm redesigning the board to consolidate things but that just means that more stuff gets put under cover. >> <snip> >> >>>>> And that's only for formal meetings, BoD, due diligence or when finance >>>>> guys are there. Other than that it's always jeans and regular shirts. At >>>>> home T-shirts and in the winter Lumberjack shirts. >>>> I wear the same shirts at home or in front of the customer. Well, the ones I >>>> wear at home are the ones I wore in front of the customer a few years ago. ;-) >>>> >>> Different here. We rarely run the A/C so I wear short and T-shirts. The >>> office often hovers around 90F. When doing heavy-duty SPICE a lot more. >> >> I wear them year around. AC or not. I don't own any others. >> > >Wow. I'd be drenched in sweat and it would not be a pretty picture. Only when I'm working outside, or in the attic. The attic work likely won't start again until at least September. I thought I might get a break today and work out there, but nope (91F w/50% humidity and sunny). It's like working in the rain. You can only get so wet. ;-) >>>>> It does make sense to buy quality stuff. Cheap shirts can look bad after >>>>> just a dozen washes while good ones last many years. >>>> Yes, but you don't have to spend a lot of money on them. >>>> >>> I'd rather have stuff that lasts. >> >> Same shirts, different day. >> >>>>> But hey, I knew a guy who had more money that Uncle Scrooge, was >>>>> chauffeured around in a Bentley, yet he usually ate herring and >>>>> potatoes. Now with food, we sometimes splurge. Same with beer, you won't >>>>> find any cheap ones here. >>>> ...but you do go cheap on electronics. ;-) >>>> >>> Yes, there's always a cost calculator running inside my brain. Even when >>> working on hi-rel stuff where cost really doesn't matter, it simply >>> won't turn off. Once a client asked me what the electronics would cost, >>> more casually. "45 bucks" ... some jaws dropped ... "We can't even buy a >>> decent wrench for that, heck, our coffee maker cost more". >> >> We're on a cost kick now. The owner decided that it's his money. >> Unfortunately, a lot of the decisions were made long ago and aren't easy or >> cheap to change now. It's tough when the rules change after the game is in >> play. >> > >Mostly that will result in a complete redesign. That is when the NRE >that entails must be factored in, to see how fast the effort truly >amortizes. Anything north of four years is generally frowned upon. Yep. I'm doing a redesign now, but at least on this pass the ground rules state that no firmware can be changed. That alone cuts the possibilities some 80% (I've already done the design, including firmware changes). The real bigies would hit the case, though. There is well into six figures in the molds so there is no way that's going to pay. |