PicKit 2 WARNING
in [Design]
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From: Robert Baer on 16 Sep 2009 14:39 ehsjr wrote: > Robert Baer wrote: >> ehsjr wrote: >> >>> Robert Baer wrote: >>> >>>> Jan Panteltje wrote: >>>> >>>>> On a sunny day (Sun, 13 Sep 2009 21:07:10 -0700) it happened Robert >>>>> Baer >>>>> <robertbaer(a)localnet.com> wrote in >>>>> <V7ednUh1WdnzXDDXnZ2dnUVZ_qSdnZ2d(a)posted.localnet>: >>>>> >>>>>> You can permanently destroy a PicKit 2 programming pod in an >>>>>> easy un-documented manner. >>>>>> 1) Tie one or more pins of a PIC MCU to ground; it does not help >>>>>> to have MCU program use the pin(s) as inputs. >>>>>> 2) Program then power up the MCU with the PicKit 2; you may need >>>>>> to do power down and power up a few times. >>>>>> ZZZZzzzzzaaaaaa:P:! No Poof, No Frap, No Zap; it just gets killed. >>>>>> As far as i can tell the USP port is not damaged; my 1Gbyte stick >>>>>> still reads OK. >>>>>> >>>>>> And the damn pods are not cheap. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I am still using this one, wrote software for it to support every >>>>> PIC I needed so far: >>>>> http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/noppp/ >>>>> Blow up as many as you want, less then 1$ part count. >>>>> >>>> Nice. But..using unsupported PIC parts and have a fast computer - >>>> so i will pass on the NOPPP. >>>> That site referred to Dontronics which has 4 programmers; all of >>>> them are MUCH more expensive. >>>> >>> >>> Maybe you can build your own - don't give up on that idea too soon. >>> If you don't like the NOPP, there's plenty more. Here's one example: >>> http://www.rentron.com/Myke4.htm >>> That's for a serial port. For USB try >>> http://www.mcuhobby.com/articles.php?article_id=7 >>> >>> At least reading about it is free. Building a programmer >>> might save you some $ so it is worth considering. >>> >>> Ed >> >> What little i saw at the mcuhobby site is extremely interesting and >> it would be nice to make that clone. >> BUT. >> Other than the "fact" that it may exist, how does one (1) get a >> schematic, > > It is on page 2 of the article. > > (2) get the program for the chip tht it uses, and (3) find >> out what that chip might be? > > The chip is identified (PIC18F2550) on the schematic and on page 4 > of the article, and there is a link to the download site for the code. > > You will need a working programmer to load the code into the 18F2550, > or a friend with on to do it for you. > >> The site takes over 3 minutes to load; i gave up at tht point. > > Ok, that problem I cannot solve for you. :-( > I can Email the schematic, if that helps. It is 123 Kb > > Ed > Ahh..._page_ 1 thru 4! Did not see that; was on page one and it was taking forever. Waited this time, and each of the other pages were a lot faster - so i now have it all. I presume the code is the same..even tho the xtal circuitry is totally different, ISCP pin 6 is different and other minor details (?).
From: Spehro Pefhany on 16 Sep 2009 15:40 On Wed, 16 Sep 2009 11:11:27 -0700, Robert Baer <robertbaer(a)localnet.com> wrote: >Spehro Pefhany wrote: >> On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 23:25:58 -0700, the renowned Robert Baer >> <robertbaer(a)localnet.com> wrote: >> >>> David L. Jones wrote: >>>> Robert Baer wrote: >>>>> David L. Jones wrote: >>>>>> Frank Buss wrote: >>>>>>> David L. Jones wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Robert Baer wrote: >>>>>>>>> You can permanently destroy a PicKit 2 programming pod in an >>>>>>>>> easy un-documented manner. >>>>>>>>> 1) Tie one or more pins of a PIC MCU to ground; it does not help >>>>>>>>> to have MCU program use the pin(s) as inputs. >>>>>>>>> 2) Program then power up the MCU with the PicKit 2; you may need >>>>>>>>> to do power down and power up a few times. >>>>>>>>> ZZZZzzzzzaaaaaa:P:! No Poof, No Frap, No Zap; it just gets >>>>>>>>> killed. As far as i can tell the USP port is not damaged; my >>>>>>>>> 1Gbyte stick still reads OK. >>>>>>> I have no such problems with this test setup: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.frank-buss.de/pic18f2550/index.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The PIC is always powered from external power in my test setup. But >>>>>>> I noticed that the PicKit pulls VDD to low, if disabled, which was >>>>>>> not much of a problem, because of my current limited power supply, >>>>>>> but I think this could destroy the prorgammer. >>>>>> It can only pull VDD low with a 1K in series, so that isn't going to >>>>>> destroy the programmer. >>>>>> www.modtronix.com/products/prog/pickit2/pickit2%20datasheet.pdf >>>>>> >>>>>>>> Err, yes they are, at $35 it's one of the cheapest official >>>>>>>> programmers on the market for any micro. >>>>>>> There are some other programmers within the same price range: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?keywords=428-2021-ND >>>>>>> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?keywords=336-1182-ND >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But you are right, there are more expensive ones, but then usually >>>>>>> with in-circuit debugging support etc. >>>>>> The PICkit2 has in-circuit debugging capability, stand-alone field >>>>>> programming support, and can power your circuit under test with any >>>>>> voltage from 2.8V to 5V. And as a bonus can be used as a 4 logic >>>>>> analyser and serial protocol analyser too. Pretty good value for >>>>>> money! Dave. >>>>>> >>>>> There was NO (1K) "protection" resistor (8 lines) from MCU to >>>>> ground; at worst 2 pins were shorted. >>>> Huh? >>>> I'm refering to Frank comment about the PICkit2 circuit and it's ability to >>>> pull the VDD pin LOW. >>>> According to the schematic for the PICkit2 it's got a 1K series resistor in >>>> there for that. >>>> >>>> Dave. >>>> >>> There is an *actual* (and correct) schematic for the PicKit-2 >>> programming pod? >>> Where, oh where pray tell? >> >> User's Guide, Appendix A. >> >> >> Best regards, >> Spehro Pefhany > IFFI (eg: if and only if) the appendix exists. > It did with the reference given earlier in this thread. Ahem. A quick search with Google found documents DS51553A, DS51553B, DS51553C, DS51553D AND DS51553E. That's five revisions of the User's Manual and ALL of them have the schematic near the end. It's grown from 30-odd pages at the beginning to about 86 pages currently: http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/51553E.pdf
From: Robert Baer on 17 Sep 2009 03:39 Spehro Pefhany wrote: > On Wed, 16 Sep 2009 11:11:27 -0700, Robert Baer > <robertbaer(a)localnet.com> wrote: > >> Spehro Pefhany wrote: >>> On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 23:25:58 -0700, the renowned Robert Baer >>> <robertbaer(a)localnet.com> wrote: >>> >>>> David L. Jones wrote: >>>>> Robert Baer wrote: >>>>>> David L. Jones wrote: >>>>>>> Frank Buss wrote: >>>>>>>> David L. Jones wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Robert Baer wrote: >>>>>>>>>> You can permanently destroy a PicKit 2 programming pod in an >>>>>>>>>> easy un-documented manner. >>>>>>>>>> 1) Tie one or more pins of a PIC MCU to ground; it does not help >>>>>>>>>> to have MCU program use the pin(s) as inputs. >>>>>>>>>> 2) Program then power up the MCU with the PicKit 2; you may need >>>>>>>>>> to do power down and power up a few times. >>>>>>>>>> ZZZZzzzzzaaaaaa:P:! No Poof, No Frap, No Zap; it just gets >>>>>>>>>> killed. As far as i can tell the USP port is not damaged; my >>>>>>>>>> 1Gbyte stick still reads OK. >>>>>>>> I have no such problems with this test setup: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.frank-buss.de/pic18f2550/index.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The PIC is always powered from external power in my test setup. But >>>>>>>> I noticed that the PicKit pulls VDD to low, if disabled, which was >>>>>>>> not much of a problem, because of my current limited power supply, >>>>>>>> but I think this could destroy the prorgammer. >>>>>>> It can only pull VDD low with a 1K in series, so that isn't going to >>>>>>> destroy the programmer. >>>>>>> www.modtronix.com/products/prog/pickit2/pickit2%20datasheet.pdf >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Err, yes they are, at $35 it's one of the cheapest official >>>>>>>>> programmers on the market for any micro. >>>>>>>> There are some other programmers within the same price range: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?keywords=428-2021-ND >>>>>>>> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?keywords=336-1182-ND >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But you are right, there are more expensive ones, but then usually >>>>>>>> with in-circuit debugging support etc. >>>>>>> The PICkit2 has in-circuit debugging capability, stand-alone field >>>>>>> programming support, and can power your circuit under test with any >>>>>>> voltage from 2.8V to 5V. And as a bonus can be used as a 4 logic >>>>>>> analyser and serial protocol analyser too. Pretty good value for >>>>>>> money! Dave. >>>>>>> >>>>>> There was NO (1K) "protection" resistor (8 lines) from MCU to >>>>>> ground; at worst 2 pins were shorted. >>>>> Huh? >>>>> I'm refering to Frank comment about the PICkit2 circuit and it's ability to >>>>> pull the VDD pin LOW. >>>>> According to the schematic for the PICkit2 it's got a 1K series resistor in >>>>> there for that. >>>>> >>>>> Dave. >>>>> >>>> There is an *actual* (and correct) schematic for the PicKit-2 >>>> programming pod? >>>> Where, oh where pray tell? >>> User's Guide, Appendix A. >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> Spehro Pefhany >> IFFI (eg: if and only if) the appendix exists. >> It did with the reference given earlier in this thread. > > Ahem. A quick search with Google found documents DS51553A, DS51553B, > DS51553C, DS51553D AND DS51553E. That's five revisions of the User's > Manual and ALL of them have the schematic near the end. It's grown > from 30-odd pages at the beginning to about 86 pages currently: > > http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/51553E.pdf > > > But of course! Everything i had until recently was a few-page PDF and ZERO hint of a schematic for the pod - and ALL other PDF's that EVERY ONE ELSE had were complete and perfect. And i bet EVERY ONE else has a perfect version of the ZIP that failed on me. Standard operating BS. If you want guaranteed trading profits, then give me some money and make all of your trades opposite of ANYTHING i do in trading; it will not matter if everything i trade for gains goes up or trade for losses goes down. I would almost always lose and your "contrarian" (WRT my) trades would gain.
From: IanM on 17 Sep 2009 10:48 Robert Baer wrote: > Spehro Pefhany wrote: >> On Wed, 16 Sep 2009 11:11:27 -0700, Robert Baer >> <robertbaer(a)localnet.com> wrote: >> >>> Spehro Pefhany wrote: >>>> On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 23:25:58 -0700, the renowned Robert Baer >>>> <robertbaer(a)localnet.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> David L. Jones wrote: >>>>>> Robert Baer wrote: >>>>>>> David L. Jones wrote: >>>>>>>> Frank Buss wrote: >>>>>>>>> David L. Jones wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Robert Baer wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> You can permanently destroy a PicKit 2 programming pod in an >>>>>>>>>>> easy un-documented manner. >>>>>>>>>>> 1) Tie one or more pins of a PIC MCU to ground; it does not help >>>>>>>>>>> to have MCU program use the pin(s) as inputs. >>>>>>>>>>> 2) Program then power up the MCU with the PicKit 2; you may need >>>>>>>>>>> to do power down and power up a few times. >>>>>>>>>>> ZZZZzzzzzaaaaaa:P:! No Poof, No Frap, No Zap; it just gets >>>>>>>>>>> killed. As far as i can tell the USP port is not damaged; my >>>>>>>>>>> 1Gbyte stick still reads OK. >>>>>>>>> I have no such problems with this test setup: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.frank-buss.de/pic18f2550/index.html >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The PIC is always powered from external power in my test setup. >>>>>>>>> But >>>>>>>>> I noticed that the PicKit pulls VDD to low, if disabled, which was >>>>>>>>> not much of a problem, because of my current limited power supply, >>>>>>>>> but I think this could destroy the prorgammer. >>>>>>>> It can only pull VDD low with a 1K in series, so that isn't >>>>>>>> going to >>>>>>>> destroy the programmer. >>>>>>>> www.modtronix.com/products/prog/pickit2/pickit2%20datasheet.pdf >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Err, yes they are, at $35 it's one of the cheapest official >>>>>>>>>> programmers on the market for any micro. >>>>>>>>> There are some other programmers within the same price range: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?keywords=428-2021-ND >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?keywords=336-1182-ND >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> But you are right, there are more expensive ones, but then usually >>>>>>>>> with in-circuit debugging support etc. >>>>>>>> The PICkit2 has in-circuit debugging capability, stand-alone field >>>>>>>> programming support, and can power your circuit under test with any >>>>>>>> voltage from 2.8V to 5V. And as a bonus can be used as a 4 logic >>>>>>>> analyser and serial protocol analyser too. Pretty good value for >>>>>>>> money! Dave. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> There was NO (1K) "protection" resistor (8 lines) from MCU to >>>>>>> ground; at worst 2 pins were shorted. >>>>>> Huh? >>>>>> I'm refering to Frank comment about the PICkit2 circuit and it's >>>>>> ability to pull the VDD pin LOW. >>>>>> According to the schematic for the PICkit2 it's got a 1K series >>>>>> resistor in there for that. >>>>>> >>>>>> Dave. >>>>>> >>>>> There is an *actual* (and correct) schematic for the PicKit-2 >>>>> programming pod? >>>>> Where, oh where pray tell? >>>> User's Guide, Appendix A. >>>> >>>> Best regards, Spehro Pefhany >>> IFFI (eg: if and only if) the appendix exists. >>> It did with the reference given earlier in this thread. >> >> Ahem. A quick search with Google found documents DS51553A, DS51553B, >> DS51553C, DS51553D AND DS51553E. That's five revisions of the User's >> Manual and ALL of them have the schematic near the end. It's grown >> from 30-odd pages at the beginning to about 86 pages currently: >> http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/51553E.pdf >> >> >> > But of course! > Everything i had until recently was a few-page PDF and ZERO hint of a > schematic for the pod - and ALL other PDF's that EVERY ONE ELSE had were > complete and perfect. > And i bet EVERY ONE else has a perfect version of the ZIP that failed > on me. > Standard operating BS. > If you want guaranteed trading profits, then give me some money and > make all of your trades opposite of ANYTHING i do in trading; it will > not matter if everything i trade for gains goes up or trade for losses > goes down. > I would almost always lose and your "contrarian" (WRT my) trades would > gain. > Do you get paid to sit in the same room as a faulty computer so it will work perfectly while you are there? ;-) I did have a problem with the PK2 hex file once and had to grab one from Microchip. Cant remember if it was the one in the PK2CMD zip though. Next time you are visiting somewhere with broadband access, it would be worth updating your Microchip datasheet collection. -- Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED) ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk [at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & >32K emails --> NUL:
From: Spehro Pefhany on 17 Sep 2009 10:49
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 00:39:09 -0700, Robert Baer <robertbaer(a)localnet.com> wrote: >Spehro Pefhany wrote: >> On Wed, 16 Sep 2009 11:11:27 -0700, Robert Baer >> <robertbaer(a)localnet.com> wrote: >> >>> Spehro Pefhany wrote: >>>> On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 23:25:58 -0700, the renowned Robert Baer >>>> <robertbaer(a)localnet.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> David L. Jones wrote: >>>>>> Robert Baer wrote: >>>>>>> David L. Jones wrote: >>>>>>>> Frank Buss wrote: >>>>>>>>> David L. Jones wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Robert Baer wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> You can permanently destroy a PicKit 2 programming pod in an >>>>>>>>>>> easy un-documented manner. >>>>>>>>>>> 1) Tie one or more pins of a PIC MCU to ground; it does not help >>>>>>>>>>> to have MCU program use the pin(s) as inputs. >>>>>>>>>>> 2) Program then power up the MCU with the PicKit 2; you may need >>>>>>>>>>> to do power down and power up a few times. >>>>>>>>>>> ZZZZzzzzzaaaaaa:P:! No Poof, No Frap, No Zap; it just gets >>>>>>>>>>> killed. As far as i can tell the USP port is not damaged; my >>>>>>>>>>> 1Gbyte stick still reads OK. >>>>>>>>> I have no such problems with this test setup: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.frank-buss.de/pic18f2550/index.html >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The PIC is always powered from external power in my test setup. But >>>>>>>>> I noticed that the PicKit pulls VDD to low, if disabled, which was >>>>>>>>> not much of a problem, because of my current limited power supply, >>>>>>>>> but I think this could destroy the prorgammer. >>>>>>>> It can only pull VDD low with a 1K in series, so that isn't going to >>>>>>>> destroy the programmer. >>>>>>>> www.modtronix.com/products/prog/pickit2/pickit2%20datasheet.pdf >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Err, yes they are, at $35 it's one of the cheapest official >>>>>>>>>> programmers on the market for any micro. >>>>>>>>> There are some other programmers within the same price range: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?keywords=428-2021-ND >>>>>>>>> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?keywords=336-1182-ND >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> But you are right, there are more expensive ones, but then usually >>>>>>>>> with in-circuit debugging support etc. >>>>>>>> The PICkit2 has in-circuit debugging capability, stand-alone field >>>>>>>> programming support, and can power your circuit under test with any >>>>>>>> voltage from 2.8V to 5V. And as a bonus can be used as a 4 logic >>>>>>>> analyser and serial protocol analyser too. Pretty good value for >>>>>>>> money! Dave. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> There was NO (1K) "protection" resistor (8 lines) from MCU to >>>>>>> ground; at worst 2 pins were shorted. >>>>>> Huh? >>>>>> I'm refering to Frank comment about the PICkit2 circuit and it's ability to >>>>>> pull the VDD pin LOW. >>>>>> According to the schematic for the PICkit2 it's got a 1K series resistor in >>>>>> there for that. >>>>>> >>>>>> Dave. >>>>>> >>>>> There is an *actual* (and correct) schematic for the PicKit-2 >>>>> programming pod? >>>>> Where, oh where pray tell? >>>> User's Guide, Appendix A. >>>> >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> Spehro Pefhany >>> IFFI (eg: if and only if) the appendix exists. >>> It did with the reference given earlier in this thread. >> >> Ahem. A quick search with Google found documents DS51553A, DS51553B, >> DS51553C, DS51553D AND DS51553E. That's five revisions of the User's >> Manual and ALL of them have the schematic near the end. It's grown >> from 30-odd pages at the beginning to about 86 pages currently: >> >> http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/51553E.pdf >> >> >> > But of course! > Everything i had until recently was a few-page PDF and ZERO hint of a >schematic for the pod - and ALL other PDF's that EVERY ONE ELSE had were >complete and perfect. > And i bet EVERY ONE else has a perfect version of the ZIP that failed >on me. > Standard operating BS. > If you want guaranteed trading profits, then give me some money and >make all of your trades opposite of ANYTHING i do in trading; it will >not matter if everything i trade for gains goes up or trade for losses >goes down. > I would almost always lose and your "contrarian" (WRT my) trades >would gain. LOL. Hang in there Robert. But I'd sure suggest getting onto broadband as soon as possible. I think you have to expect development tool hardware to go bad once in a while. There are just too many opportunties for damage.. cost of doing business. Anyway, I think uChip will replace or repair dev tools for free (maybe you have to send the old one back first and wait a bit). They certainly do so for Design House clients such as myself, and they do it very promptly without undue questions which might embarass the poor jr. engineer who blew it up. |