PicKit 2 WARNING
in [Design]
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From: Robert Baer on 18 Sep 2009 03:55 IanM wrote: > Robert Baer wrote: >> Spehro Pefhany wrote: >>> On Wed, 16 Sep 2009 11:11:27 -0700, Robert Baer >>> <robertbaer(a)localnet.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Spehro Pefhany wrote: >>>>> On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 23:25:58 -0700, the renowned Robert Baer >>>>> <robertbaer(a)localnet.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> David L. Jones wrote: >>>>>>> Robert Baer wrote: >>>>>>>> David L. Jones wrote: >>>>>>>>> Frank Buss wrote: >>>>>>>>>> David L. Jones wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Robert Baer wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> You can permanently destroy a PicKit 2 programming pod in an >>>>>>>>>>>> easy un-documented manner. >>>>>>>>>>>> 1) Tie one or more pins of a PIC MCU to ground; it does not >>>>>>>>>>>> help >>>>>>>>>>>> to have MCU program use the pin(s) as inputs. >>>>>>>>>>>> 2) Program then power up the MCU with the PicKit 2; you may >>>>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>>>> to do power down and power up a few times. >>>>>>>>>>>> ZZZZzzzzzaaaaaa:P:! No Poof, No Frap, No Zap; it just gets >>>>>>>>>>>> killed. As far as i can tell the USP port is not damaged; my >>>>>>>>>>>> 1Gbyte stick still reads OK. >>>>>>>>>> I have no such problems with this test setup: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.frank-buss.de/pic18f2550/index.html >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The PIC is always powered from external power in my test >>>>>>>>>> setup. But >>>>>>>>>> I noticed that the PicKit pulls VDD to low, if disabled, which >>>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>>> not much of a problem, because of my current limited power >>>>>>>>>> supply, >>>>>>>>>> but I think this could destroy the prorgammer. >>>>>>>>> It can only pull VDD low with a 1K in series, so that isn't >>>>>>>>> going to >>>>>>>>> destroy the programmer. >>>>>>>>> www.modtronix.com/products/prog/pickit2/pickit2%20datasheet.pdf >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Err, yes they are, at $35 it's one of the cheapest official >>>>>>>>>>> programmers on the market for any micro. >>>>>>>>>> There are some other programmers within the same price range: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?keywords=428-2021-ND >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?keywords=336-1182-ND >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> But you are right, there are more expensive ones, but then >>>>>>>>>> usually >>>>>>>>>> with in-circuit debugging support etc. >>>>>>>>> The PICkit2 has in-circuit debugging capability, stand-alone field >>>>>>>>> programming support, and can power your circuit under test with >>>>>>>>> any >>>>>>>>> voltage from 2.8V to 5V. And as a bonus can be used as a 4 logic >>>>>>>>> analyser and serial protocol analyser too. Pretty good value for >>>>>>>>> money! Dave. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There was NO (1K) "protection" resistor (8 lines) from MCU to >>>>>>>> ground; at worst 2 pins were shorted. >>>>>>> Huh? >>>>>>> I'm refering to Frank comment about the PICkit2 circuit and it's >>>>>>> ability to pull the VDD pin LOW. >>>>>>> According to the schematic for the PICkit2 it's got a 1K series >>>>>>> resistor in there for that. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dave. >>>>>>> >>>>>> There is an *actual* (and correct) schematic for the PicKit-2 >>>>>> programming pod? >>>>>> Where, oh where pray tell? >>>>> User's Guide, Appendix A. >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, Spehro Pefhany >>>> IFFI (eg: if and only if) the appendix exists. >>>> It did with the reference given earlier in this thread. >>> >>> Ahem. A quick search with Google found documents DS51553A, DS51553B, >>> DS51553C, DS51553D AND DS51553E. That's five revisions of the User's >>> Manual and ALL of them have the schematic near the end. It's grown >>> from 30-odd pages at the beginning to about 86 pages currently: >>> http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/51553E.pdf >>> >>> >>> >> But of course! >> Everything i had until recently was a few-page PDF and ZERO hint of >> a schematic for the pod - and ALL other PDF's that EVERY ONE ELSE had >> were complete and perfect. >> And i bet EVERY ONE else has a perfect version of the ZIP that >> failed on me. >> Standard operating BS. >> If you want guaranteed trading profits, then give me some money and >> make all of your trades opposite of ANYTHING i do in trading; it will >> not matter if everything i trade for gains goes up or trade for losses >> goes down. >> I would almost always lose and your "contrarian" (WRT my) trades >> would gain. >> > Do you get paid to sit in the same room as a faulty computer so it will > work perfectly while you are there? ;-) > > I did have a problem with the PK2 hex file once and had to grab one from > Microchip. Cant remember if it was the one in the PK2CMD zip though. > > Next time you are visiting somewhere with broadband access, it would be > worth updating your Microchip datasheet collection. They have so many huge files that even with high speed internet it would take at least a day...
From: Robert Baer on 18 Sep 2009 04:03 Spehro Pefhany wrote: > On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 00:39:09 -0700, Robert Baer > <robertbaer(a)localnet.com> wrote: > >> Spehro Pefhany wrote: >>> On Wed, 16 Sep 2009 11:11:27 -0700, Robert Baer >>> <robertbaer(a)localnet.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Spehro Pefhany wrote: >>>>> On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 23:25:58 -0700, the renowned Robert Baer >>>>> <robertbaer(a)localnet.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> David L. Jones wrote: >>>>>>> Robert Baer wrote: >>>>>>>> David L. Jones wrote: >>>>>>>>> Frank Buss wrote: >>>>>>>>>> David L. Jones wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Robert Baer wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> You can permanently destroy a PicKit 2 programming pod in an >>>>>>>>>>>> easy un-documented manner. >>>>>>>>>>>> 1) Tie one or more pins of a PIC MCU to ground; it does not help >>>>>>>>>>>> to have MCU program use the pin(s) as inputs. >>>>>>>>>>>> 2) Program then power up the MCU with the PicKit 2; you may need >>>>>>>>>>>> to do power down and power up a few times. >>>>>>>>>>>> ZZZZzzzzzaaaaaa:P:! No Poof, No Frap, No Zap; it just gets >>>>>>>>>>>> killed. As far as i can tell the USP port is not damaged; my >>>>>>>>>>>> 1Gbyte stick still reads OK. >>>>>>>>>> I have no such problems with this test setup: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.frank-buss.de/pic18f2550/index.html >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The PIC is always powered from external power in my test setup. But >>>>>>>>>> I noticed that the PicKit pulls VDD to low, if disabled, which was >>>>>>>>>> not much of a problem, because of my current limited power supply, >>>>>>>>>> but I think this could destroy the prorgammer. >>>>>>>>> It can only pull VDD low with a 1K in series, so that isn't going to >>>>>>>>> destroy the programmer. >>>>>>>>> www.modtronix.com/products/prog/pickit2/pickit2%20datasheet.pdf >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Err, yes they are, at $35 it's one of the cheapest official >>>>>>>>>>> programmers on the market for any micro. >>>>>>>>>> There are some other programmers within the same price range: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?keywords=428-2021-ND >>>>>>>>>> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?keywords=336-1182-ND >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> But you are right, there are more expensive ones, but then usually >>>>>>>>>> with in-circuit debugging support etc. >>>>>>>>> The PICkit2 has in-circuit debugging capability, stand-alone field >>>>>>>>> programming support, and can power your circuit under test with any >>>>>>>>> voltage from 2.8V to 5V. And as a bonus can be used as a 4 logic >>>>>>>>> analyser and serial protocol analyser too. Pretty good value for >>>>>>>>> money! Dave. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There was NO (1K) "protection" resistor (8 lines) from MCU to >>>>>>>> ground; at worst 2 pins were shorted. >>>>>>> Huh? >>>>>>> I'm refering to Frank comment about the PICkit2 circuit and it's ability to >>>>>>> pull the VDD pin LOW. >>>>>>> According to the schematic for the PICkit2 it's got a 1K series resistor in >>>>>>> there for that. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dave. >>>>>>> >>>>>> There is an *actual* (and correct) schematic for the PicKit-2 >>>>>> programming pod? >>>>>> Where, oh where pray tell? >>>>> User's Guide, Appendix A. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> Spehro Pefhany >>>> IFFI (eg: if and only if) the appendix exists. >>>> It did with the reference given earlier in this thread. >>> Ahem. A quick search with Google found documents DS51553A, DS51553B, >>> DS51553C, DS51553D AND DS51553E. That's five revisions of the User's >>> Manual and ALL of them have the schematic near the end. It's grown >>> from 30-odd pages at the beginning to about 86 pages currently: >>> >>> http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/51553E.pdf >>> >>> >>> >> But of course! >> Everything i had until recently was a few-page PDF and ZERO hint of a >> schematic for the pod - and ALL other PDF's that EVERY ONE ELSE had were >> complete and perfect. >> And i bet EVERY ONE else has a perfect version of the ZIP that failed >> on me. >> Standard operating BS. >> If you want guaranteed trading profits, then give me some money and >> make all of your trades opposite of ANYTHING i do in trading; it will >> not matter if everything i trade for gains goes up or trade for losses >> goes down. >> I would almost always lose and your "contrarian" (WRT my) trades >> would gain. > > LOL. Hang in there Robert. But I'd sure suggest getting onto broadband > as soon as possible. > > I think you have to expect development tool hardware to go bad once in > a while. There are just too many opportunties for damage.. cost of > doing business. Anyway, I think uChip will replace or repair dev tools > for free (maybe you have to send the old one back first and wait a > bit). They certainly do so for Design House clients such as myself, > and they do it very promptly without undue questions which might > embarass the poor jr. engineer who blew it up. > I agree that getting high speed internet would be "very nice". BUT. 1) Too expensive for me (a) DSL is an added $30+ per month not including undisclosed fees and taxes, (b) cable ditto, and (c) Clear rates are now in the same ballpark with the additional problem that a usable signal is at least 100 feet away from any window i might be able to use, (d) satellite dish is in the $600 per month region and less reliable than using a drum. The undisclosed fees and taxes are at least 50 percent more than the advertised rate. If the cost was $20 per month *TOTAL* i might be able to squeak by.
From: Spehro Pefhany on 18 Sep 2009 11:29
On Fri, 18 Sep 2009 01:03:36 -0700, Robert Baer <robertbaer(a)localnet.com> wrote: >Spehro Pefhany wrote: >> LOL. Hang in there Robert. But I'd sure suggest getting onto broadband >> as soon as possible. >> >> I think you have to expect development tool hardware to go bad once in >> a while. There are just too many opportunties for damage.. cost of >> doing business. Anyway, I think uChip will replace or repair dev tools >> for free (maybe you have to send the old one back first and wait a >> bit). They certainly do so for Design House clients such as myself, >> and they do it very promptly without undue questions which might >> embarass the poor jr. engineer who blew it up. >> > I agree that getting high speed internet would be "very nice". > BUT. >1) Too expensive for me (a) DSL is an added $30+ per month not including >undisclosed fees and taxes, (b) cable ditto, and (c) Clear rates are now >in the same ballpark with the additional problem that a usable signal is >at least 100 feet away from any window i might be able to use, (d) >satellite dish is in the $600 per month region and less reliable than >using a drum. > The undisclosed fees and taxes are at least 50 percent more than the >advertised rate. > If the cost was $20 per month *TOTAL* i might be able to squeak by. Maybe consider going VOIP on your phones and dry loop (just the broadband, no POTS). |