Proposed experiment for detection of absolute motion
in [Relativity]
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From: NoEinstein on 14 Jul 2010 19:57 On Jul 14, 11:55 am, Craig Markwardt <craig.markwa...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Dear Craig: You are an Einstein pedant pretending to edify people on the fine points of "frames" and clocks. My New Science has simple X, Y, and Z spaces, and time which doesn't change in rate regardless of how close to a mass the clock is. Clocks are mechanical devices which are fallible. But true time keeps right on measuring accurately wherever one wishes to know it. Mathematical analyses can calculate true times without the limits of the experiment construction processes. NoEinstein > > On Jul 10, 12:57 pm, GSS <gurcharn_san...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > Friends, > > Last year I had held detailed discussions in these forums, on > > the feasibility of experimental detection of absolute motion.http://groups.google.com/group/sci.astro/browse_frm/thread/e24d067ec6... > > Subsequently I compiled a formal paper titled "Proposed experiment for > > detection of absolute motion" and submitted to Physics Essays (An > > International Journal dedicated to fundamental questions in Physics) > > for publication. After a detailed peer review, this paper has now been > > published in this journal [http://www.physicsessays.com/]. The > > abstract of this paper is reproduced below. > > This paper is an example of poor refereeing by the reviewer and also > your own neglect of criticism that occurred in the previous thread. > As noted by Mark L. Ferguson now - and myself a year ago - you have > assumed something which is not SR as your starting point, and thus, > your conclusions are irrelevant regarding SR. Your fundamental error > is that you assumed that somehow the clocks attached to the moving > "spacecraft" were simultaneously synchronized in the spacecraft frame > and a "universal" frame. Since this is impossible in SR, your > conclusions are invalid. Even a marginally knowledgable reviewer > should have picked up on this. > > The irony is that your paper does attempt to derive the up- and down- > link times using the principles of SR in section 2, but then you > immediately discard the results because it does not provide the answer > you desire. The truth is that - assuming the principles of SR - the > up- and down-link times *will* be different as measured by observers > co-moving in two different frames with their own co-moving clocks. In > fact, by exchanging up- and down-link timing information after the > observations were taken, the two observers could estimate their > relative velocity. But this is not a measurement of "absolute" > motion. That is, unless you could have already placed one observer at > "absolute rest" before the experiment started, which presupposes what > you are trying to measure in the first place. This was noted one year > ago, but you ignored it. > > The real title of your paper should be, "Proposed experiment for > detection of absolute motion ASSUMING THAT NEWTONIAN RELATIVITY IS > TRUE". But since we know that Newtonian relativity is not true based > on so many other experiments, the conclusions of the paper are not > relevant. I am sorry that the refereeing system failed in this case. > > CM
From: BURT on 14 Jul 2010 22:26 On Jul 13, 10:17 pm, NoEinstein <noeinst...(a)bellsouth.net> wrote: > On Jul 13, 11:38 pm, BURT <macromi...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > Dear Burt: I'll give you an 85! Indeed, there must be an > acceleration, however small, before reaching any fixed speed. If the > speed changes, there IS a force (front or back) to show that the speed > change has occurred. And... if motion occurs (acceleration) there will > be a mass proportional force, because of the object's inertia pushing > of the enclosure. NoEinstein > > > > > > > On Jul 13, 8:18 pm, NoEinstein <noeinst...(a)bellsouth.net> wrote: > > > > On Jul 12, 6:38 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Dear PD, the Dunce: If you... elementary school teachers know so > > > much, why aren't you making '+new posts' to explain what you've > > > contributed? Because you all know nothing nor have you contributed > > > anything! NE > > > > > On Jul 12, 4:53 pm, NoEinstein <noeinst...(a)bellsouth.net> wrote: > > > > > > On Jul 12, 4:16 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > Dear PD the DUNCE School Teacher: Read some of the following links to > > > > > see how clearly I've documented what I've done. > > > > > I've looked them over and can find no adequate documentation of your > > > > $2,000 interferometer. > > > > Are you sure you made one, or did you just make that up too? > > > > > > Oh... Have you > > > > > replicated that $40.00 dropped ball experiment? That color photo I > > > > > sent you is all the documentation needed to disprove Coriolis and > > > > > Einstein, etc. NE > > > > > You know, if you put up a "color photo" of your apparatus at a 4th > > > > grade science fair and called it your experimental description, you > > > > wouldn't get even a C for it. > > > > > > Where Angels Fear to Fallhttp://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/browse_frm/thread/8152ef3e... > > > > > Last Nails in Einstein's Coffinhttp://groups.google.com/group/sci..physics.relativity/browse_frm/thre... > > > > > Pop Quiz for Science Buffs!http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/browse_frm/thread/43f6f316... > > > > > An Einstein Disproof for Dummieshttp://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/browse_thread/thread/f7a63... > > > > > Another look at Einsteinhttp://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/browse_frm/thread/41670721... > > > > > Three Problems for Math and Sciencehttp://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/browse_thread/thread/bb07f... > > > > > Matter from Thin Airhttp://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/browse_thread/thread/ee4fe... > > > > > Curing Einsteins Diseasehttp://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/browse_thread/thread/4ff9e... > > > > > Replicating NoEinsteins Invalidation of M-M (at sci.math)http://groups.google.com/group/sci.math/browse_thread/thread/d9f98526... > > > > > Cleaning Away Einsteins Mishmashhttp://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/browse_thread/thread/5d847... > > > > > Dropping Einstein Like a Stonehttp://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/browse_thread/thread/989e1... > > > > > Plotting the Curves of Coriolis, Einstein, and NoEinstein (is > > > > > Copyrighted.)http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/browse_thread/thread/713f8... > > > > > Are Jews Destroying Objectivity in Science?http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/browse_thread/thread/d4cbe... > > > > > The Gravity of Masses Doesnt Bend Light.http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/browse_thread/thread/efb99... > > > > > KE = 1/2mv^2 is disproved in new falling object impact test.http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/browse_thread/thread/51a85... > > > > > Light rays dont travel on ballistic curves.http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/browse_thread/thread/c3d7a... > > > > > A BLACK HOLE MYTH GETS BUSTED:http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/browse_thread/thread/a1702... > > > > > SR Ignored the Significance of the = Signhttp://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/browse_thread/thread/56247... > > > > > Eleaticus confirms that SR has been destroyed!http://groups.google.com/group/sci.math/browse_thread/thread/c3cdedf3... > > > > > NoEinstein Finds Yet Another Reason Why SR Bites-the-Dust!http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/browse_thread/thread/a3a12... > > > > > NoEinstein Gives the History & Rationale for Disproving Einsteinhttp://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/browse_thread/thread/81046... > > > > > There is no "pull" of gravity, only the PUSH of flowing ether!http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/browse_thread/thread/a8c26... > > > > > PD has questions about science. Can any of you help?http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/browse_thread/thread/4a2ed... > > > > > Taking a Fresh Look at the Physics of Radiometers.http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/browse_thread/thread/3ebe8... > > > > > A Proposed Gravity-Propelled Swing Experiment.http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/browse_thread/thread/3052e... > > > > > Shedding New Light on Comet Tailshttp://groups.google.com/g/d8e7fef4/t/fbb6a213b8c465b3/.../187797453b...... > > > > > What is sci.research seeking if not the truth?http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/browse_thread/thread/d3082... > > > > > > > On Jul 12, 9:23 am, NoEinstein <noeinst...(a)bellsouth.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Jul 11, 1:59 pm, Sam Wormley <sworml...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Sam: Mine was (is) a $2,000.00 experiment intended to answer the > > > > > > > 'yes or no' question: Can Earth's velocity and direction be determined > > > > > > > via an Earth mounted experiment? > > > > > > > Is the experiment documented? Where? > > > > > > > > The answer is a resounding YES! But > > > > > > > a new generation of experiment, costing a great deal more, will be > > > > > > > needed to give the absolute numbers. I can envision having dozens of > > > > > > > such interferometers functioning in unison to determine absolute speed > > > > > > > so accurately, that it can be proven that the Universe is NOT > > > > > > > expanding from the BB. NoEinstein > > > > > > > > > On 7/11/10 12:07 PM, NoEinstein wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear GSS: I have already detected Earth's absolute speed and > > > > > > > > > direction using my first-generation X, Y, and Z interferometer. > > > > > > > > > What's the speed?- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > Speed is created by acceleration. Change in speed is always detectable > > by weightedness of flowing energy in the other direction. > > > Motion is detectable at its onset due to weight. > > > Mitch Raemsch- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Weight indicates change in motion or creation of motion. This is motion detection at its beginning. Mitch Raemsch
From: GSS on 15 Jul 2010 07:50 On Jul 14, 8:55 pm, Craig Markwardt <craig.markwa...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Jul 10, 12:57 pm, GSS <gurcharn_san...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > >> Friends, >> Last year I had held detailed discussions in these forums, on >> the feasibility of experimental detection of absolute motion. >> http://groups.google.com/group/sci.astro/browse_frm/thread/e24d067ec6... >> Subsequently I compiled a formal paper titled "Proposed experiment for >> detection of absolute motion" and submitted to Physics Essays (An >> International Journal dedicated to fundamental questions in Physics) >> for publication. After a detailed peer review, this paper has now been >> published in this journal [http://www.physicsessays.com/]. The >> abstract of this paper is reproduced below. > > This paper is an example of poor refereeing by the reviewer and also > your own neglect of criticism that occurred in the previous thread. > As noted by Mark L. Ferguson now - and myself a year ago - you have > assumed something which is not SR as your starting point, and thus, > your conclusions are irrelevant regarding SR. Your fundamental error > is that you assumed that somehow the clocks attached to the moving > "spacecraft" were simultaneously synchronized in the spacecraft frame > and a "universal" frame. Since this is impossible in SR, your > conclusions are invalid. Even a marginally knowledgable reviewer > should have picked up on this. > > The irony is that your paper does attempt to derive the up- and down- > link times using the principles of SR in section 2, but then you > immediately discard the results because it does not provide the answer > you desire. The truth is that - assuming the principles of SR - the > up- and down-link times *will* be different as measured by observers > co-moving in two different frames with their own co-moving clocks. In > fact, by exchanging up- and down-link timing information after the > observations were taken, the two observers could estimate their > relative velocity. But this is not a measurement of "absolute" > motion. That is, unless you could have already placed one observer at > "absolute rest" before the experiment started, which presupposes what > you are trying to measure in the first place. This was noted one year > ago, but you ignored it. > At the end of section 2 I have stated, "The inability to directly measure the signal propagation times T_u and T_d in the stationary reference frame K, is not due to any technological limitations, but is a logical consequence of the relativity of time and the corresponding clock synchronization constraints, induced by the second postulate of SR. Therefore, if we begin by assuming the validity of the second postulate of SR, we cannot detect absolute motion because successful detection of such absolute motion will itself invalidate the second postulate of SR." You keep stressing that I must invalidate SR by first using the infrastructure of SR and then demonstrating the internal contradictions in it. However, I have repeatedly clarified to you that there are no mathematical contradictions in SR which could have been demonstrated the way you want it. What I am trying to invalidate is the foundation of SR, its second postulate, for which I don't have to use the internal structure of SR. > The real title of your paper should be, "Proposed experiment for > detection of absolute motion ASSUMING THAT NEWTONIAN RELATIVITY IS > TRUE". But since we know that Newtonian relativity is not true based > on so many other experiments, the conclusions of the paper are not > relevant. There is a logical flaw in your argument. Since the proposed experiment is primarily aimed at showing the invalidity of the second postulate of SR, logically I cannot ASSUME THAT EINSTEINIAN RELATIVITY IS TRUE. What I have assumed is the validity of the Newtonian notion of absolute space and absolute time, which obviously implies an isotropic speed of light propagation in only one inertial reference frame and not in *all inertial reference frames in relative uniform motion*. Ultimately the results of the proposed experiment will confirm whether my assumption is valid or not. As such your objection is totally unwarranted and ill-conceived. Kindly remember that we are not discussing some theoretical paper, the conclusions of which could be disputed or disagreed to. The conclusions of the proposed experiment are highlighted with the expected results illustrated at figures 3 and 4 of the subject paper. In this regard you are requested to kindly clarify your position on following points. (a) If the results of an actual experiment confirm the predicted results illustrated at figures 3 and 4, will you gracefully agree that the second postulate of SR has been invalidated? Or will you try your level best to search for some lame excuse for not accepting the results? (b) Using your knowledge of SR and GR, can you predict the result of the proposed experiment in terms of the maximum difference in the to and fro flight times, |T_u-T_d| expected under Relativity; especially if YOU expect them to be much DIFFERENT from zero? (c) We know that the two clocks A and B fixed on the surface of earth, can be seen to be MOVING at DIFFERENT velocities in the ECI, BCRF and Galactic Reference Frames. Do you think this fact can CONFUSE the two clocks whether they should display the *time* of ECI or BCRF or of Galactic Reference Frames? > I am sorry that the refereeing system failed in this case. > > CM No, I think it is your blind faith in Relativity which is frustrating you! The review process of the subject paper has been very extensive, critical and useful. I had to revise my paper five times in five months to produce a unique paper of its kind. GSS
From: JT on 15 Jul 2010 08:16 On 15 Juli, 01:46, NoEinstein <noeinst...(a)bellsouth.net> wrote: > On Jul 14, 5:51 am, JT <jonas.thornv...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > Dear JT: You preface by saying that you know nothing about physics. > Then, you claim that physical rotating a space ship 10,000 RPM won't > impose stress on the occupants. So, you prove your own point: You > don't know anything about physics! The laws of physics don't require > closeness to mass for their existence. In most likelihood, every > person on your spaceship would be dead, from draining their blood from > their brain, or stopping their heart because of the compressive forces > put on the bodies. The best way for you to learn physics is to > observe what happens in real life. Put a rat in a cage and spin it > 10K rpm, and the rat dies. Of course that same thing will happen > halfway between galaxies. NoEinstein > > So what do you suppose the ship rotate relative (i said it rotate at 100 000RPM relative earth but what make you say it is really rotating, so tell me what is the real rotational RPM and versus what i guess you do not hold our earth for the origo of nonerotation?) The rotation of earth is measured against a fixed point origo, namely our sun in euclidian space, using a Cartesian cordinate system if earth never would change face relative the sun we would still have an orbit but earth would be a nonerotating object by definition. Do you propose that our sun is the origo of the nonerotating Euclidian space we travel? OR what is the nonerotating frame of the universe do you try to say there is an absolute nonerotational frame in the the universe, i think everyone is keen to now what you propose it is. I say rotational forces is only present when something breaks out from the ruling gravitational field. In deepspace the body will not experience any g-forces, the only thing that will let you know that you rotate is the background stars, If you propose that there is a g-forces relative these foreign starts you will have to invent a new longdistance gravitational force, i am all pro that many have proposed such a force. But your handwaving doesn't do it for me. JT > > On 12 Juli, 01:27, "Socratis" <socra...(a)alice.it> wrote: > > > > "Androcles" <Headmas...(a)Hogwarts.physics_z> wrote in message > > > >news:WEq_n.205263$k15.183421(a)hurricane... > > > > > "Socratis" <socra...(a)alice.it> wrote in message > > > >news:i1d9b3$ele$1(a)speranza.aioe.org... > > > > | Out in space on a merry-go-round that's not moving. > > > > | You toss the ball straight away from you - it goes directly > > > > | to the person across from you. > > > > | > > > > | Out in space on a merry-go-round that's rotating. > > > > | You toss the ball straight away from you (directly toward > > > > | the person opposite) - it curves away toward someone else. > > > > | > > > > | Not trying to be a troll - I just don't understand the physics. > > > > | It seems clear to me that this demonstrates that the merry-go-round > > > > | is (absolutely) rotating in the second case. > > > > | > > > > You are already "out in space" riding the merry-go-round called "Earth". > > > > There is a thin layer of air above you for 100 km (65 miles) straight up > > > > and if you ride up in a balloon to that height you'd see the blackness of > > > > space. The blue you see in daylight is scattered sunlight. It is scattered > > > > by dust. At night you will be in the Earth's shadow, and if your view is > > > > clear (no clouds) you'll see stars. As you turn, you'll see the stars > > > > cross > > > > the sky until you turn toward the Sun. Then it will be dawn, and as you > > > > watch, you'll turn with the Earth and the Sun will appear to rise in the > > > > sky > > > > and then set in the west, but it is really not moving at all, you are as > > > > you > > > > ride the Earth. Thus the Sun crossing the sky is RELATIVE motion. There is > > > > no absolute motion. Go outside and look up until you understand you are on > > > > a > > > > merry-go-round called Earth and the universe is standing still while *you* > > > > are moving. Pick any star, then look where it is every hour of the night. > > > > Do > > > > this at least once in your life. I've done it many times, as do all > > > > amateur > > > > astronomers. If you get bored, do some night fishing. Be alone with Nature > > > > for company, for just one night. You may get to like it, I know I do. Get > > > > away from city lights, get away from people anywhere and enjoy the > > > > universe > > > > you live in the way that people did before there was such a thing as > > > > electricity to spoil the glory of the heavens. I can't do it for you, only > > > > you can do it for yourself. If you have some impediment that prevents you, > > > > overcome it. I don't know you or anything about you, I can only suggest > > > > you > > > > learn to live alone for one night without TV, radio or people telling you > > > > what to do, how to think. Listen to the insects, look at the sky, catch a > > > > fish. Do not light a fire, stay in the dark and *see*. > > > > Unfortunately, this is a typical answer that ignores the basic question. It > > > seems to me that rotation proves that absolute motion exists, and I > > > can't seem to find a coherent explanation otherwise. When something > > > is rotating, objects on it and part of it are forced to the outside by > > > something we typically call 'centrifugal force', a term I'm aware is > > > controversial. When something isn't rotating, objects on that > > > something don't experience that 'force'. > > > > Please, if you know of a coherent way of explaining this, point me > > > to it and I'll try to understand it, because I want to understand it. > > > If you're tired of typing, just point me to a link. > > > I and many others realize there are a lot of smart physicists who > > > state there is no absolute motion, and many laymen who are > > > directly aware that a rotating object is quite different from a > > > non-rotating object. Unlike the speed of light issues (which > > > all make sense to me) the difference between rotating and > > > non-rotating objects can be experienced by anyone, providing > > > compelling and immediate evidence that absolute motion exists.- Dölj citerad text - > > > > - Visa citerad text - > > > I also find your questions interesting i do not know anything about > > physic but to me it seem like the centrifugal and centripetal force > > only is adjacent when you have rotation within a gravitational field. > > So rotational forces is the result of a body trying to break out from > > the ruling gravitational field. > > > A ship in deepspace rotating at a 100 000 RPM versus earth will put no > > strain or forces upon the inhabitants nor the ship.......... > > It is only when the ship get close to a big gravitational body the g- > > forces will start to act upon both ship and its inhabitants. > > > This could all be wrong, but then there probably is a centra of > > gravity in the universe so absolute rotation can be measured even in > > deep space far away from gravitational attractors. > > > JT- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text -- Dölj citerad text - > > - Visa citerad text -
From: Sam Wormley on 15 Jul 2010 09:22
On 7/15/10 7:16 AM, JT wrote: > So what do you suppose the ship rotate relative (i said it rotate at > 100 000RPM relative earth but what make you say it is really rotating, > so tell me what is the real rotational RPM and versus what i guess you > do not hold our earth for the origo of nonerotation?) Rotation is absolute. Laser gyro measures rotation. |