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From: Socratis on 11 Jul 2010 16:25
Out in space on a merry-go-round that's not moving.
You toss the ball straight away from you - it goes directly
to the person across from you.

Out in space on a merry-go-round that's rotating.
You toss the ball straight away from you (directly toward
the person opposite) - it curves away toward someone else.

Not trying to be a troll - I just don't understand the physics.
It seems clear to me that this demonstrates that the merry-go-round
is (absolutely) rotating in the second case.


From: Androcles on 11 Jul 2010 17:25

"Socratis" <socratis(a)alice.it> wrote in message
news:i1d9b3$ele$1(a)speranza.aioe.org...
| Out in space on a merry-go-round that's not moving.
| You toss the ball straight away from you - it goes directly
| to the person across from you.
|
| Out in space on a merry-go-round that's rotating.
| You toss the ball straight away from you (directly toward
| the person opposite) - it curves away toward someone else.
|
| Not trying to be a troll - I just don't understand the physics.
| It seems clear to me that this demonstrates that the merry-go-round
| is (absolutely) rotating in the second case.
|
You are already "out in space" riding the merry-go-round called "Earth".
There is a thin layer of air above you for 100 km (65 miles) straight up
and if you ride up in a balloon to that height you'd see the blackness of
space. The blue you see in daylight is scattered sunlight. It is scattered
by dust. At night you will be in the Earth's shadow, and if your view is
clear (no clouds) you'll see stars. As you turn, you'll see the stars cross
the sky until you turn toward the Sun. Then it will be dawn, and as you
watch, you'll turn with the Earth and the Sun will appear to rise in the sky
and then set in the west, but it is really not moving at all, you are as you
ride the Earth. Thus the Sun crossing the sky is RELATIVE motion. There is
no absolute motion. Go outside and look up until you understand you are on a
merry-go-round called Earth and the universe is standing still while *you*
are moving. Pick any star, then look where it is every hour of the night. Do
this at least once in your life. I've done it many times, as do all amateur
astronomers. If you get bored, do some night fishing. Be alone with Nature
for company, for just one night. You may get to like it, I know I do. Get
away from city lights, get away from people anywhere and enjoy the universe
you live in the way that people did before there was such a thing as
electricity to spoil the glory of the heavens. I can't do it for you, only
you can do it for yourself. If you have some impediment that prevents you,
overcome it. I don't know you or anything about you, I can only suggest you
learn to live alone for one night without TV, radio or people telling you
what to do, how to think. Listen to the insects, look at the sky, catch a
fish. Do not light a fire, stay in the dark and *see*.


From: Socratis on 11 Jul 2010 19:27

"Androcles" <Headmaster(a)Hogwarts.physics_z> wrote in message
news:WEq_n.205263$k15.183421(a)hurricane...
>
> "Socratis" <socratis(a)alice.it> wrote in message
> news:i1d9b3$ele$1(a)speranza.aioe.org...
> | Out in space on a merry-go-round that's not moving.
> | You toss the ball straight away from you - it goes directly
> | to the person across from you.
> |
> | Out in space on a merry-go-round that's rotating.
> | You toss the ball straight away from you (directly toward
> | the person opposite) - it curves away toward someone else.
> |
> | Not trying to be a troll - I just don't understand the physics.
> | It seems clear to me that this demonstrates that the merry-go-round
> | is (absolutely) rotating in the second case.
> |
> You are already "out in space" riding the merry-go-round called "Earth".
> There is a thin layer of air above you for 100 km (65 miles) straight up
> and if you ride up in a balloon to that height you'd see the blackness of
> space. The blue you see in daylight is scattered sunlight. It is scattered
> by dust. At night you will be in the Earth's shadow, and if your view is
> clear (no clouds) you'll see stars. As you turn, you'll see the stars
> cross
> the sky until you turn toward the Sun. Then it will be dawn, and as you
> watch, you'll turn with the Earth and the Sun will appear to rise in the
> sky
> and then set in the west, but it is really not moving at all, you are as
> you
> ride the Earth. Thus the Sun crossing the sky is RELATIVE motion. There is
> no absolute motion. Go outside and look up until you understand you are on
> a
> merry-go-round called Earth and the universe is standing still while *you*
> are moving. Pick any star, then look where it is every hour of the night.
> Do
> this at least once in your life. I've done it many times, as do all
> amateur
> astronomers. If you get bored, do some night fishing. Be alone with Nature
> for company, for just one night. You may get to like it, I know I do. Get
> away from city lights, get away from people anywhere and enjoy the
> universe
> you live in the way that people did before there was such a thing as
> electricity to spoil the glory of the heavens. I can't do it for you, only
> you can do it for yourself. If you have some impediment that prevents you,
> overcome it. I don't know you or anything about you, I can only suggest
> you
> learn to live alone for one night without TV, radio or people telling you
> what to do, how to think. Listen to the insects, look at the sky, catch a
> fish. Do not light a fire, stay in the dark and *see*.
>

Unfortunately, this is a typical answer that ignores the basic question. It
seems to me that rotation proves that absolute motion exists, and I
can't seem to find a coherent explanation otherwise. When something
is rotating, objects on it and part of it are forced to the outside by
something we typically call 'centrifugal force', a term I'm aware is
controversial. When something isn't rotating, objects on that
something don't experience that 'force'.

Please, if you know of a coherent way of explaining this, point me
to it and I'll try to understand it, because I want to understand it.
If you're tired of typing, just point me to a link.
I and many others realize there are a lot of smart physicists who
state there is no absolute motion, and many laymen who are
directly aware that a rotating object is quite different from a
non-rotating object. Unlike the speed of light issues (which
all make sense to me) the difference between rotating and
non-rotating objects can be experienced by anyone, providing
compelling and immediate evidence that absolute motion exists.




From: nuny on 12 Jul 2010 00:56
On Jul 11, 4:27 pm, "Socratis" <socra...(a)alice.it> wrote:
> "Androcles" <Headmas...(a)Hogwarts.physics_z> wrote in message
>
> news:WEq_n.205263$k15.183421(a)hurricane...
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Socratis" <socra...(a)alice.it> wrote in message
> >news:i1d9b3$ele$1(a)speranza.aioe.org...
> > | Out in space on a merry-go-round that's not moving.
> > | You toss the ball straight away from you - it goes directly
> > | to the person across from you.
> > |
> > | Out in space on a merry-go-round that's rotating.
> > | You toss the ball straight away from you (directly toward
> > | the person opposite) - it curves away toward someone else.
> > |
> > | Not trying to be a troll - I just don't understand the physics.
> > | It seems clear to me that this demonstrates that the merry-go-round
> > | is (absolutely) rotating in the second case.
> > |
> > You are already "out in space" riding the merry-go-round called "Earth"..
> > There is a thin layer of air above you for 100 km (65 miles) straight up
> > and if you ride up in a balloon to that height you'd see the blackness of
> > space. The blue you see in daylight is scattered sunlight. It is scattered
> > by dust. At night you will be in the Earth's shadow, and if your view is
> > clear (no clouds) you'll see stars. As you turn, you'll see the stars
> > cross
> > the sky until you turn toward the Sun. Then it will be dawn, and as you
> > watch, you'll turn with the Earth and the Sun will appear to rise in the
> > sky
> > and then set in the west, but it is really not moving at all, you are as
> > you
> > ride the Earth. Thus the Sun crossing the sky is RELATIVE motion. There is
> > no absolute motion. Go outside and look up until you understand you are on
> > a
> > merry-go-round called Earth and the universe is standing still while *you*
> > are moving. Pick any star, then look where it is every hour of the night.
> > Do
> > this at least once in your life. I've done it many times, as do all
> > amateur
> > astronomers. If you get bored, do some night fishing. Be alone with Nature
> > for company, for just one night. You may get to like it,  I know I do.. Get
> > away from city lights, get away from people anywhere and enjoy the
> > universe
> > you live in the way that people did before there was such a thing as
> > electricity to spoil the glory of the heavens. I can't do it for you, only
> > you can do it for yourself. If you have some impediment that prevents you,
> > overcome it. I don't know you or anything about you, I can only suggest
> > you
> > learn to live alone for one night without TV, radio or people telling you
> > what to do, how to think. Listen to the insects, look at the sky, catch a
> > fish. Do not light a fire, stay in the dark and *see*.
>
> Unfortunately, this is a typical answer that ignores the basic question.  It
> seems to me that rotation proves that absolute motion exists, and I
> can't seem to find a coherent explanation otherwise.  When something
> is rotating, objects on it and part of it are forced to the outside by
> something we typically call 'centrifugal force', a term I'm aware is
> controversial.  When something isn't rotating, objects on that
> something don't experience that 'force'.
>
> Please, if you know of a coherent way of explaining this, point me
> to it and I'll try to understand it, because I want to understand it.
> If you're tired of typing, just point me to a link.
> I and many others realize there are a lot of smart physicists who
> state there is no absolute motion, and many laymen who are
> directly aware that a rotating object is quite different from a
> non-rotating object.  Unlike the speed of light issues (which
> all make sense to me) the difference between rotating and
> non-rotating objects can be experienced by anyone, providing
> compelling and immediate evidence that absolute motion exists.

AFAIK nobody says that rotation is not absolute.

Unaccelerated linear motion is said to be "relative" (nothing to do
with Einstein, mind) because you cannot determine your state of linear
motion without measuring it with respect to some external reference
object.

Accelerated linear motion *is* absolute because you can measure it
locally (meaning you don't need any external reference) with any of
several types of accelerometer.

Similar for rotational motion; such things as Foucault's pendulum or
gyroscopes (physical or optical) measure it easily without any
external reference required.

"Absolute" velocity, as usually used, is the alleged velocity of an
object with respect to the entire universe; but if such exists,
there's no clear way to measure it.


Mark L. Fergerson
From: Helmut Wabnig hwabnig on 12 Jul 2010 03:00
On Sun, 11 Jul 2010 16:27:23 -0700, "Socratis" <socratis(a)alice.it>
wrote:

>
>"Androcles" <Headmaster(a)Hogwarts.physics_z> wrote in message
>news:WEq_n.205263$k15.183421(a)hurricane...
>>
>> "Socratis" <socratis(a)alice.it> wrote in message
>> news:i1d9b3$ele$1(a)speranza.aioe.org...
>> | Out in space on a merry-go-round that's not moving.
>> | You toss the ball straight away from you - it goes directly
>> | to the person across from you.
>> |
>> | Out in space on a merry-go-round that's rotating.
>> | You toss the ball straight away from you (directly toward
>> | the person opposite) - it curves away toward someone else.
>> |
>> | Not trying to be a troll - I just don't understand the physics.
>> | It seems clear to me that this demonstrates that the merry-go-round
>> | is (absolutely) rotating in the second case.
>> |
>> You are already "out in space" riding the merry-go-round called "Earth".
>> There is a thin layer of air above you for 100 km (65 miles) straight up
>> and if you ride up in a balloon to that height you'd see the blackness of
>> space. The blue you see in daylight is scattered sunlight. It is scattered
>> by dust. At night you will be in the Earth's shadow, and if your view is
>> clear (no clouds) you'll see stars. As you turn, you'll see the stars
>> cross
>> the sky until you turn toward the Sun. Then it will be dawn, and as you
>> watch, you'll turn with the Earth and the Sun will appear to rise in the
>> sky
>> and then set in the west, but it is really not moving at all, you are as
>> you
>> ride the Earth. Thus the Sun crossing the sky is RELATIVE motion. There is
>> no absolute motion. Go outside and look up until you understand you are on
>> a
>> merry-go-round called Earth and the universe is standing still while *you*
>> are moving. Pick any star, then look where it is every hour of the night.
>> Do
>> this at least once in your life. I've done it many times, as do all
>> amateur
>> astronomers. If you get bored, do some night fishing. Be alone with Nature
>> for company, for just one night. You may get to like it, I know I do. Get
>> away from city lights, get away from people anywhere and enjoy the
>> universe
>> you live in the way that people did before there was such a thing as
>> electricity to spoil the glory of the heavens. I can't do it for you, only
>> you can do it for yourself. If you have some impediment that prevents you,
>> overcome it. I don't know you or anything about you, I can only suggest
>> you
>> learn to live alone for one night without TV, radio or people telling you
>> what to do, how to think. Listen to the insects, look at the sky, catch a
>> fish. Do not light a fire, stay in the dark and *see*.
>>
>
>Unfortunately, this is a typical answer that ignores the basic question. It
>seems to me that rotation proves that absolute motion exists, and I
>can't seem to find a coherent explanation otherwise. When something
>is rotating, objects on it and part of it are forced to the outside by
>something we typically call 'centrifugal force', a term I'm aware is
>controversial. When something isn't rotating, objects on that
>something don't experience that 'force'.
>
>Please, if you know of a coherent way of explaining this, point me
>to it and I'll try to understand it, because I want to understand it.
>If you're tired of typing, just point me to a link.
>I and many others realize there are a lot of smart physicists who
>state there is no absolute motion, and many laymen who are


###We cannot detect absolute motion###

that's what physicists say.

reread your statement once again:

>state there is no absolute motion

see the difference?

w.


>directly aware that a rotating object is quite different from a
>non-rotating object. Unlike the speed of light issues (which
>all make sense to me) the difference between rotating and
>non-rotating objects can be experienced by anyone, providing
>compelling and immediate evidence that absolute motion exists.
>


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