SR/GR use absolute time to synchronize the GPS clocks with the ground clock.
in [Relativity]
|
From: kenseto on 23 Mar 2010 09:47 On Mar 22, 7:11 pm, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) wrote: > kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> writes: > >On Mar 22, 12:46 pm, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) > >wrote: > > >> Just like the frequency of the horn on the train does not change > >> just because it is approaching the audience on the train platform. > >> The audience hears the desired tone, 440 Hz. Passengers on the train > >> hear a lower tone, the tone the horn was designed for. GPS receivers > >> receive the proper signal frequency on the ground. Anyone riding a GPS > >> satellite will detect a different frequency, the frequency preselected so > >> that the target audience, users near/on the ground, will receive the > >> proper frequency. > > >> There is *no* difference between the train example and the GPS system, > >> other than the source of the frequency shift (Doppler vs. SR/GR). Both > >> systems preadjusted the frequency so that the target audience will receive > >> the correct frequency. =A0That is all. > >No idiot the audience hear the desired tone only when the train is > >approaching them. They will hear different tone when the train is > >recding away from them. You really need to study SR befor eyou make a > >fool of yourself again. > > What difference does it make if the pitch changes as the train passes? > None. The concert is over by then, the train's part was played only when > it approaches. My point was that phyical effects change the frequency from > that emitted by the source, and this can be compensated for in advance. In that case are you saying that the GPS works only for a specific situation? Your naive understanding of the GPS is laughable. Let me expain to you once again: In SR the rate of a clock moving wrt you is 1/gamma at all time. The GPS clock sends sends a signal to the ground clock after the passage of N+4.15 periods of Cs 133 radiation....when the ground clock receives this signal it will know that the passage of N periods of Cs 133 radiation on its clock have taken place. > > If the tone change as the train passes the station really bothers you, > change things so that the train blows its horn as it moves away instead > of approaching, so the tone heard by the audience never changes, and the > pitch of the horn installed on the train must be of a higher frequency > than 440 Hz.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
From: kenseto on 23 Mar 2010 09:56 On Mar 22, 6:02 pm, "Inertial" <relativ...(a)rest.com> wrote: > "kenseto" <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote in message > > news:7fa3e9f3-209d-434b-a1fa-3cd13bf7a810(a)q16g2000yqq.googlegroups.com... > > > > > > > On Mar 22, 12:46 pm, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) > > wrote: > >> kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> writes: > >> >On Mar 21, 11:31 pm, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) > >> >wrote: > >> >> So, idiot, why do you dismiss a perceived frequency shift due to the > >> >> Doppler Effect as just the Doppler Effect and ignore the composer's > >> >> effort > >> >> to compensate for the Doppler Effect as trivial, yet you come up with > >> >> kookiness such as "redefinition of the second" when the designers of > >> >> the GPS system had the foresight to compensate for the frequency shift > >> >> of special and general relativity? All the GPS designers did was the > >> >> very same thing the composer did, to compensate for a physical effect > >> >> that > >> >> changes the frequency due to ordinary physics. > >> >Hey idiot....the rate of a clock moving wrt you does not change > >> >because it move away from you or move toward you. Accoridng to SR its > >> >rate is 1/gamma at all times. > > >> Just like the frequency of the horn on the train does not change > >> just because it is approaching the audience on the train platform. > >> The audience hears the desired tone, 440 Hz. Passengers on the train > >> hear a lower tone, the tone the horn was designed for. GPS receivers > >> receive the proper signal frequency on the ground. Anyone riding a GPS > >> satellite will detect a different frequency, the frequency preselected so > >> that the target audience, users near/on the ground, will receive the > >> proper frequency. > > >> There is *no* difference between the train example and the GPS system, > >> other than the source of the frequency shift (Doppler vs. SR/GR). Both > >> systems preadjusted the frequency so that the target audience will > >> receive > >> the correct frequency. That is all. > > > No idiot the audience hear the desired tone only when the train is > > approaching them. They will hear different tone when the train is > > recding away from them. You really need to study SR befor eyou make a > > fool of yourself again. > > There was no claim above the SR predict tile dilation dependent on direction > of motion .. you replying as if it does just shows that you cannot > comprehend simple analogies. Hey idiot....no body is claiming that time dilation is frame dependent. The arguement is that Moroney claimed that Doppler shift is the same as the redefinition of the GPS second. It is not. Ken Seto > > The point is, if you know the particular situation (eg train coming toward > you, or GPS satellite) you can (pre-)adjust the frequency sent so that it > will be detected (heard) as the required frequency by the observer/listener. > That is what happens in GPS satellites.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
From: kenseto on 23 Mar 2010 09:57 On Mar 22, 6:37 pm, xxein <xx...(a)comcast.net> wrote: > On Mar 19, 10:26 am, kenseto <kens...(a)erinet.com> wrote: > > > > > > > SR/GR use absolute time to synchronize the GPS clocks with the ground > > clock as follows: > > 1. A standard clock second is defined to have 9,192,631,770 periods of > > Cs 133 radiation or N periods of Cs 133 radiation. > > 2. Before a GPS clock is launched into orbit its clock second is > > redefined to have (N +4.15) periods of Cs 133 radiation. This means > > that while in orbit a GPS second is defined to have (N+4.15) periods > > of Cs 133 radiation. > > 3. The reason for the redefinition of the GPS second is to make (N > > +4.15) periods of Cs 133 radiation at the GPS orbiting location to > > contain the same amount of absolute time as N periods of Cs 133 > > radiation on the ground clock. > > 4. The redefined GPS second makes the GPS clock in synch with the > > ground clock continuously. The only daily adjustment is to correct the > > daily drifts. > > > Ken Seto > > xxein: Ever hear of time dilation? NOT the same as Doppler shift. > When you figure this out you will understand something more of gravity > and motion within it. But I doubt it. Hey idiot time dilation got nothing to do with this discussion. - Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
From: eric gisse on 23 Mar 2010 11:12 kenseto wrote: [...] > Hey idiot the rate of a clock moving wrt you is at 1/gamma at all > times. At what point will you finally give up?
From: Michael Moroney on 23 Mar 2010 12:51
kenseto <kenseto(a)erinet.com> writes: >Hey idiot time dilation got nothing to do with this discussion. Time dilation has *everything* to do with this discussion. Time dilation would cause the GPS satellite to "transmit" at the wrong frequency (as far as a terrestial receiver is concerned), so they adjusted the frequency before launch so it would at the correct frequency on Earth. |