Sagnac Idiocy
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From: George Dishman on 5 Oct 2007 11:22 "Jerry" <Cephalobus_alienus(a)comcast.net> wrote in message news:1191593421.613830.159110(a)50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com... > On Oct 5, 8:03 am, "George Dishman" <geo...(a)briar.demon.co.uk> wrote: >> "Clueless Henri Wilson" <HW@....> wrote in >> messagenews:eslag31kt24b8o9lq3v6sq5mgadd3n97qm(a)4ax.com... > >> > see my 'spinning wheel' post...i will provide diagrams >> > when i get around to it. >> >> A static diagram won't be much use, you will need >> to do an animation so that we can see the phase >> of the signals at the detector and make the table >> speed variable. > > Since Henri doesn't understand math, I posted an applet > (including source code) that MAYBE Henri can understand. > > http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics.relativity/msg/1c03f332f90d65b5 > > which links to > > http://mysite.verizon.net/cephalobus_alienus/sagnac/BallisticSagnac.htm Perfect! that's _exactly_ what I had in mind. If that's your first attempt, you might be interested in this: http://www.um.es/fem/Ejs/ I'll have a look at your code when I get time. > ... In all probability, Henri will misunderstand > as well. All he needs to do is confirm for himself that the speed of the waves is correct but I'm sure he will produce nothing but abuse and excuses as usual. Anyway, it illustrates the point I was making beautifully. It might help if you could add a control for the table speed so Henry can check you didn't just pick a speed where the shift is exactly one wavelength, and/or a start/stop button that freezes the screen so he can count the number of waves. George
From: Androcles on 5 Oct 2007 11:47 "George Dishman" <george(a)briar.demon.co.uk> wrote in message news:ermdnYwTBeXVyJvaRVnytQA(a)pipex.net... : : "Jerry" <Cephalobus_alienus(a)comcast.net> wrote in message : news:1191593421.613830.159110(a)50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com... : > On Oct 5, 8:03 am, "George Dishman" <geo...(a)briar.demon.co.uk> wrote: : >> "Clueless Henri Wilson" <HW@....> wrote in : >> messagenews:eslag31kt24b8o9lq3v6sq5mgadd3n97qm(a)4ax.com... : > : >> > see my 'spinning wheel' post...i will provide diagrams : >> > when i get around to it. : >> : >> A static diagram won't be much use, you will need : >> to do an animation so that we can see the phase : >> of the signals at the detector and make the table : >> speed variable. : > : > Since Henri doesn't understand math, I posted an applet : > (including source code) that MAYBE Henri can understand. : > : > http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics.relativity/msg/1c03f332f90d65b5 : > : > which links to : > : > http://mysite.verizon.net/cephalobus_alienus/sagnac/BallisticSagnac.htm : : Perfect! that's _exactly_ what I had in mind. : : If that's your first attempt, you might be interested : in this: : : http://www.um.es/fem/Ejs/ : : I'll have a look at your code when I get time. : : > ... In all probability, Henri will misunderstand : > as well. : : All he needs to do is confirm for himself that the : speed of the waves is correct It is: In Jeery's model the speeds are: 144 degrees in 27 seconds for the rotating frame (5.3 degrees/sec) 720 + 144 in 27 seconds for the blue ray (32 degrees/sec) 720 - 144 in 27 seconds for the red ray ( 21.3 degrees/sec) 21.3 + 2 * 5.3 = 31.9, close enough to 32 with my rounding error. Excellent model, two speeds of light in the frame of the screen, one in the rotating frame, 720 degrees in 27 seconds or 26.7 degrees/sec Sanity check: 26.7 + 5.3 = 32 degrees/sec 26.7 - 5.3 = 21.4 degrees/sec "But the ray moves relatively to the initial point of k, when measured in the stationary system, with the velocity c-v" -- Einstein. What do you know, he was right. Who was the idiot that said it was c in all frames of reference?
From: Dr. Henri Wilson on 5 Oct 2007 17:22 On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 07:10:21 -0700, Jerry <Cephalobus_alienus(a)comcast.net> wrote: >On Oct 5, 8:03 am, "George Dishman" <geo...(a)briar.demon.co.uk> wrote: >> "Clueless Henri Wilson" <HW@....> wrote in messagenews:eslag31kt24b8o9lq3v6sq5mgadd3n97qm(a)4ax.com... > >> > see my 'spinning wheel' post...i will provide diagrams >> > when i get around to it. >> >> A static diagram won't be much use, you will need >> to do an animation so that we can see the phase >> of the signals at the detector and make the table >> speed variable. > >Since Henri doesn't understand math, I posted an applet >(including source code) that MAYBE Henri can understand. > >http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics.relativity/msg/1c03f332f90d65b5 > >which links to > >http://mysite.verizon.net/cephalobus_alienus/sagnac/BallisticSagnac.htm You have made the same mistake as George. You have used the rotating frame to wrongly conclude that the number of wavelengths around the ring is the same in both directions. In fact, wavelength is NOT absolute and constant in the rotating frame. >Of course, I see that people like Androcles are capable >of misunderstanding the clear message conveyed by this >program. In all probability, Henri will misunderstand >as well. This is clearly way over your head. see the bottom diagram at: www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/ringgyro.htm >Jerry Henri Wilson. ASTC,BSc,DSc(T) www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm
From: Dr. Henri Wilson on 5 Oct 2007 17:28 On Fri, 5 Oct 2007 16:22:40 +0100, "George Dishman" <george(a)briar.demon.co.uk> wrote: > >"Jerry" <Cephalobus_alienus(a)comcast.net> wrote in message >news:1191593421.613830.159110(a)50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com... >> http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics.relativity/msg/1c03f332f90d65b5 >> >> which links to >> >> http://mysite.verizon.net/cephalobus_alienus/sagnac/BallisticSagnac.htm > >Perfect! that's _exactly_ what I had in mind. It seems two minds are better than one....EXCEPT when they belong to relativists. You have both fallen into the same trap of trying to use the rotating frame. 'wavelength' is NOT invariant in that frame but is dependent on rotation speed. Simple proof is that the path lengths clearly increas and decrease in the inertial frame but not in the rotating one....and wavelength is absolute, constant and speed independent in BaTh. You are not accommodating the different number of wavelengths kin your paths. >If that's your first attempt, you might be interested >in this: > > http://www.um.es/fem/Ejs/ > >I'll have a look at your code when I get time. > >> ... In all probability, Henri will misunderstand >> as well. > >All he needs to do is confirm for himself that the >speed of the waves is correct but I'm sure he will >produce nothing but abuse and excuses as usual. > >Anyway, it illustrates the point I was making >beautifully. It might help if you could add a >control for the table speed so Henry can check you >didn't just pick a speed where the shift is exactly >one wavelength, and/or a start/stop button that >freezes the screen so he can count the number of >waves. > >George > > > Henri Wilson. ASTC,BSc,DSc(T) www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm
From: Dr. Henri Wilson on 5 Oct 2007 17:33
On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 15:47:25 GMT, "Androcles" <Engineer(a)hogwarts.physics> wrote: > >"George Dishman" <george(a)briar.demon.co.uk> wrote in message >news:ermdnYwTBeXVyJvaRVnytQA(a)pipex.net... >: >: "Jerry" <Cephalobus_alienus(a)comcast.net> wrote in message >: news:1191593421.613830.159110(a)50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com... >: > On Oct 5, 8:03 am, "George Dishman" <geo...(a)briar.demon.co.uk> wrote: >: >> "Clueless Henri Wilson" <HW@....> wrote in >: >> messagenews:eslag31kt24b8o9lq3v6sq5mgadd3n97qm(a)4ax.com... >: > >: >> > see my 'spinning wheel' post...i will provide diagrams >: >> > when i get around to it. >: >> >: >> A static diagram won't be much use, you will need >: >> to do an animation so that we can see the phase >: >> of the signals at the detector and make the table >: >> speed variable. >: > >: > Since Henri doesn't understand math, I posted an applet >: > (including source code) that MAYBE Henri can understand. >: > >: > >http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics.relativity/msg/1c03f332f90d65b5 >: > >: > which links to >: > >: > http://mysite.verizon.net/cephalobus_alienus/sagnac/BallisticSagnac.htm >: >: Perfect! that's _exactly_ what I had in mind. >: >: If that's your first attempt, you might be interested >: in this: >: >: http://www.um.es/fem/Ejs/ >: >: I'll have a look at your code when I get time. >: >: > ... In all probability, Henri will misunderstand >: > as well. >: >: All he needs to do is confirm for himself that the >: speed of the waves is correct > > >It is: > In Jeery's model the speeds are: >144 degrees in 27 seconds for the rotating frame (5.3 degrees/sec) >720 + 144 in 27 seconds for the blue ray (32 degrees/sec) >720 - 144 in 27 seconds for the red ray ( 21.3 degrees/sec) >21.3 + 2 * 5.3 = 31.9, close enough to 32 with my rounding error. > >Excellent model, two speeds of light in the frame of the screen, >one in the rotating frame, 720 degrees in 27 seconds or 26.7 degrees/sec They are trying to use rotating frames..... and using them wrongly... Why are relativists incapable of seeing beyond first impressions? I reckon one of the easiest things to do in this world would be to sell a used car to a relativist....just tell him it's really new but shopsoiled..... >Sanity check: > 26.7 + 5.3 = 32 degrees/sec > 26.7 - 5.3 = 21.4 degrees/sec > >"But the ray moves relatively to the initial point of k, when measured in >the stationary system, with the velocity c-v" -- Einstein. >What do you know, he was right. >Who was the idiot that said it was c in all frames of reference? > > > Henri Wilson. ASTC,BSc,DSc(T) www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm |