Sagnac Idiocy
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From: Dr. Henri Wilson on 8 Oct 2007 20:38 On Mon, 8 Oct 2007 23:59:05 +0100, "George Dishman" <george(a)briar.demon.co.uk> wrote: > >"Clueless Henri Wilson" <HW@....> wrote in message >news:vbblg3ht7ve0shkjc0cc2mpvhaqvarkg5t(a)4ax.com... >> On Mon, 8 Oct 2007 18:53:58 +0100, "George Dishman" >> <george(a)briar.demon.co.uk>> wrote: >>>"Clueless Henri Wilson" <HW@....> wrote in message >>>news:g0lig39qidff8g2rmqru6nkg7matkqorr1(a)4ax.com... >>>> On Sun, 7 Oct 2007 09:29:50 +0100, "George Dishman" >>>> <george(a)briar.demon.co.uk> wrote: >> >>>> >>>> You are completely ignoring the fact that the source moves during the >>>> tavel >>> >>>The animation always included it but Jerry has added >>>a yellow marker line for the dul witted. The location >>>of the source at the moment of emission of the start >>>of the wave is shown by that and its subsequent >>>position at any time is shown by the black line. >> >> Jerry's animation is a joke... > >Then why can't you find a flaw in it? I have. The waves are not in phase at the emission point....simple! > >>>The distance they move is from the yellow line to the >>>black line at the time the start of the wave reaches it. >> >> which is as I said above. > >Exactly, the animation already shows what >you complained about. It doesn't include ring rotation speed. >>>It determines the relative phase hence the fringes. >> >> the travel times AND WAVELENGTHS are the same. the paths lengths are >> different. > >And travel time determines phase. No George. In BaTh, 'wavelength' is absolute and path length difference alone determines phase. Jerry's animation uses rays that BEGIN out of phase. Jerry doesn't include ring rotation speed and how it affects the umber of wavelengths in each path. >>>> wheel. There will still be 1000 marks on it no matter how fast it spins. >>> >>>Exactly. Think about it, one wave is emitted and moves >>>at c relative to the source, so in time t=1/f is is >>>ct = c/f ahead of the source when the next wave is >>>emitted. That means they are c/f apart and that pattern >>>moves round at a speed of c+v. >> >> George, we can use the linear analogy. > >Why not just look at the maths above. > >> ..........................................................................................................->c >> A_____________________B >> >> The line of dots represents the wavecrests of a light ray moving at c. >> A and B are the end points of a rigid rod. >> >> There are N dots between points A nd B, NO MATTER HOW fast the rod moves >> past >> them...or no matter how fast the light ray moves past the rod.. >> >> Next, let the position of B move by vt, where v is the speed of the rod >> and t >> is the time taken for a wavecrest to travel from A to B. Note, A, >> representing >> the source, does not move. > >Wrong, the source _does_ move, there is your error. >You are as bad as Androcles only you want the >source to be off the table. George, sorry if I said the wrong thing there. A is the emission pit rather than the 'source'. The splitting mirror, ie., source, DOES move but the emission point, A, does not. >Just look at Jerry's simulation and try to find an >error, there isn't one. the rays that end up in phase did not BEGIN in phase as required. Jerry is stupid... > >George > Henri Wilson. ASTC,BSc,DSc(T) www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm
From: Androcles on 8 Oct 2007 20:50 "Dr. Henri Wilson" <HW@....> wrote in message news:f4hlg3dnf9b4shbbn36g8n0mgls8gb2imc(a)4ax.com... : On Mon, 8 Oct 2007 23:52:16 +0100, "George Dishman" <george(a)briar.demon.co.uk> : wrote: : : > : >"Clueless Henri Wilson" <HW@....> wrote in message : >news:voalg3dlnsb0odv14rh9juo0ifhm82qu3d(a)4ax.com... : >> On Mon, 08 Oct 2007 00:51:41 -0700, George Dishman : >> <george(a)briar.demon.co.uk> wrote: : >>>On 7 Oct, 22:47, HW@....(Clueless Henri Wilson) wrote: : >>>> On Sun, 7 Oct 2007 12:01:48 +0100, "George Dishman" : >>>> <geo...(a)briar.demon.co.uk> wrote: : >>>> >"Clueless Henri Wilson" <HW@....> wrote in message : >>>> >news:ku1gg39nq2eg50rdptt8pj2i6h4v1hfuc4(a)4ax.com... : >>>> >>>Right, it is just the circumference divided : >> : >>>> I have thought about it...you obviously haven't. : >>>> When the animation has stopped, only the detector position is shown. The : >>>> position of the source when the arriving light WAS EMITTED must also be : >>>> shown. : >>> : >>> http://mysite.verizon.net/cephalobus_alienus/sagnac/BallisticSagnac.htm : >>> : >>>Jerry has now added a yellow line mrking the : >>>location of the source at the time of emission. : : Look at the phasing at the YELLOW line when the thing stops. : Is it the same George? ..AS REQUIRED. That's correct. Grandpa sees a phase shift, the kid doesn't. : : How does it vary with ring rotation speed? : You don't know because Jerry hasn't included ring rotation speed at all. : : Jerry hasn't a clue.... That's shown here: http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/JeerySagnac2.gif : : >> It still doesn't show in windows Vista. : > : >Make sure you have the Sun VM installed and do : >a hard refresh. : : I'll try my other computer...but I know what has been done... : : >>>> The difference between the two is what determines the fringe : >>>> displacement. : >>> : >>>No, what determines the fringes is the relative : >>>phase of the two waves when they reach the : >>>detector. : >> : >> that is correct....and that phase is dtermined solely by the path length : >> difference, since wavelength is absolute. : > : >No, phase is determined by time. : : When the animation stops, the phasing at the emission point is not the : same...AS REQUIRED. There's a pause on the same button as "start". You can stop anywhere, even single step if you are cute with the button. Jeery is learning. : : : >>>That is why there is : >>>no fringe displacement, the detector can only be : >>>aware of what is falling on it at any instant. : >> : >> George, animate my 'toothed wheel' model...that is the correct one. : > : >Jerry's animation has 9.5 teeth, other than that, : >it is what you want, you cannot identify any error. : : Jerry has not included ring rotation speed at all. jerry is stupid.. Be fair, H. There is button to change speed and it's a good animation. I'm almost satisfied with it, only the silly comments that go with it are wrong. Now if Jeery were HONEST, we'd see the wavelengths stretched all the way back to the yellow line instead of moving with the source. They are only the trace of the path of the photon anyway, they do not move. : : : >>> : >>>It was always correct, you just need it spelled : >>>out for you. : >> : >> Think about the wheel model George. It clarifies the picture. : >> The number of teeth betwen the two lines is dependent solely on path : >> length. : > : >That is unrelated to the phase though unless you : >take account of the different speeds. : : see above : : : : >> George, you have forgotten that in the rotating fame, the source position : >> AT : >> EMISSION appears to move backwards....THERE IS YOU ERROR. : > : >But the light is already in transit so doesn't care : >what happens to the source after emission, that is : >_your_ error : : Not so george...read above again.... : : > : >> number = (circumference + vt)/wavelength : > : >No, in the rotating frame it is : > : > number = circumference/wavelength : : You forgot that the emission point moves backwards in the rotating frame. Yes, taking the end point of the wave with it and changing the wavelength. Number remains constant, though. : >>>You are still making the same mistake, you : >>>are dividing by the wavelength when you are : >>>supposed to be working in the inertial frame. : >>>The wavelength is the same in both frames but : >>>the waves _move_ so you can't just blindly use : >>>that number. : >> : >> I think you will have recognised your mistakes by now... : > : >I have again identified your mistake, you are : >still making the same one and just repeating : >it, not thinking about what is being said to : >you. : : You forgot that the emission point moves backwards in the rotating frame. AND : THE PHASING AT THE EMISSION POINT MUST BE THE SAME NOT DIFFRENT AS IN JERRY'S : ANIMATION. : : >>>[I wrote:] : >>>> : Spin up the table to constant speed, apply : >>>> : power to the slip rings to light up the source, : >>>> : switch it off when the exposure is complete : >>>> : and slow the table to a stop. Take the plate : >>>> : off the table and develop it. What could be : >>>> : easier. : >>>[Androcles wrote:] : >>>> You won't see any fringe shift with the camera : >>>> on the table, except during acceleration. You'll see : >>>> a fringe, but it won't be shifted. What was his exposure time? : >>>> Did Georges Sagnac use slip rings to operate the camera? : >>> : >>>He understands the consequences, and he denies : >>>that the experiment was built the way it was : >>>because of those consequences. You coorectly : >>>understand the construction but can't do the : >>>maths. If you could work as a team, you could : >>>understand as much as Jerry. : >> : >> You should know your mistake by now. : > : >The mistake is unchanged, your maths is wrong : >and Jerry's simulation is accurate. : : You forgot that the emission point moves backwards in the rotating frame. : : >George : > : : : : Henri Wilson. ASTC,BSc,DSc(T) : : www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm
From: Dr. Henri Wilson on 8 Oct 2007 22:07 On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 00:50:58 GMT, "Androcles" <Engineer(a)hogwarts.physics> wrote: > >"Dr. Henri Wilson" <HW@....> wrote in message >news:f4hlg3dnf9b4shbbn36g8n0mgls8gb2imc(a)4ax.com... >: >>> >: >>>Jerry has now added a yellow line mrking the >: >>>location of the source at the time of emission. >: >: Look at the phasing at the YELLOW line when the thing stops. >: Is it the same George? ..AS REQUIRED. > >That's correct. Grandpa sees a phase shift, the kid doesn't. I still don't know the difference between Grandpa and the kid.... >: How does it vary with ring rotation speed? >: You don't know because Jerry hasn't included ring rotation speed at all. >: >: Jerry hasn't a clue.... > >That's shown here: > http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/JeerySagnac2.gif That doesn't show how the path length varies with ring rotation speed. >: > >: >No, phase is determined by time. >: >: When the animation stops, the phasing at the emission point is not the >: same...AS REQUIRED. > >There's a pause on the same button as "start". You can stop anywhere, >even single step if you are cute with the button. >Jeery is learning. I can't see either button. i'll run it in XP. >: >> >: >> George, animate my 'toothed wheel' model...that is the correct one. >: > >: >Jerry's animation has 9.5 teeth, other than that, >: >it is what you want, you cannot identify any error. >: >: Jerry has not included ring rotation speed at all. jerry is stupid.. > >Be fair, H. There is button to change speed and it's a good >animation. That changes LIGHT SPEED not ring speed. > I'm almost satisfied with it, only the silly comments that >go with it are wrong. Now if Jeery were HONEST, we'd see >the wavelengths stretched all the way back to the yellow line >instead of moving with the source. that's right...and you will see that the ones that end up in phase don't start out at the same phase AS REQUIRED experimentally >They are only the trace >of the path of the photon anyway, they do not move. > > >: >: >: >>> >: >>>It was always correct, you just need it spelled >: >>>out for you. >: >> >: >> Think about the wheel model George. It clarifies the picture. >: >> The number of teeth betwen the two lines is dependent solely on path >: >> length. >: > >: >That is unrelated to the phase though unless you >: >take account of the different speeds. >: >: see above >: >: >: >: >> George, you have forgotten that in the rotating fame, the source >position >: >> AT >: >> EMISSION appears to move backwards....THERE IS YOU ERROR. >: > >: >But the light is already in transit so doesn't care >: >what happens to the source after emission, that is >: >_your_ error >: >: Not so george...read above again.... >: >: > >: >> number = (circumference + vt)/wavelength >: > >: >No, in the rotating frame it is >: > >: > number = circumference/wavelength >: >: You forgot that the emission point moves backwards in the rotating frame. > >Yes, taking the end point of the wave with it and changing the wavelength. >Number remains constant, though. No A. Wavelength number increases. Phasing changes. Wavelength is absolute and constant even in the rotating frame. I wrongly claimed it was NOT, before. It appears to change unless the emission point is moved backwards. >: >>>You are still making the same mistake, you >: >>>are dividing by the wavelength when you are >: >>>supposed to be working in the inertial frame. >: >>>The wavelength is the same in both frames but >: >>>the waves _move_ so you can't just blindly use >: >>>that number. >: >> >: >> I think you will have recognised your mistakes by now... >: > >: >I have again identified your mistake, you are >: >still making the same one and just repeating >: >it, not thinking about what is being said to >: >you. >: >: You forgot that the emission point moves backwards in the rotating frame. >AND >: THE PHASING AT THE EMISSION POINT MUST BE THE SAME NOT DIFFRENT AS IN >JERRY'S >: ANIMATION. >: >: >>>[I wrote:] >: >>>> : Spin up the table to constant speed, apply >: >>>> : power to the slip rings to light up the source, >: >>>> : switch it off when the exposure is complete >: >>>> : and slow the table to a stop. Take the plate >: >>>> : off the table and develop it. What could be >: >>>> : easier. >: >>>[Androcles wrote:] >: >>>> You won't see any fringe shift with the camera >: >>>> on the table, except during acceleration. You'll see >: >>>> a fringe, but it won't be shifted. What was his exposure time? >: >>>> Did Georges Sagnac use slip rings to operate the camera? >: >>> >: >>>He understands the consequences, and he denies Henri Wilson. ASTC,BSc,DSc(T) www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm
From: Androcles on 8 Oct 2007 22:54 "Dr. Henri Wilson" <HW@....> wrote in message news:9silg3llas6clon1j6alnblu68nl4mn1mb(a)4ax.com... : On Mon, 8 Oct 2007 23:59:05 +0100, "George Dishman" <george(a)briar.demon.co.uk> : wrote: : : > : >"Clueless Henri Wilson" <HW@....> wrote in message : >news:vbblg3ht7ve0shkjc0cc2mpvhaqvarkg5t(a)4ax.com... : >> On Mon, 8 Oct 2007 18:53:58 +0100, "George Dishman" : >> <george(a)briar.demon.co.uk>> wrote: : >>>"Clueless Henri Wilson" <HW@....> wrote in message : >>>news:g0lig39qidff8g2rmqru6nkg7matkqorr1(a)4ax.com... : >>>> On Sun, 7 Oct 2007 09:29:50 +0100, "George Dishman" : >>>> <george(a)briar.demon.co.uk> wrote: : >> : >>>> : >>>> You are completely ignoring the fact that the source moves during the : >>>> tavel : >>> : >>>The animation always included it but Jerry has added : >>>a yellow marker line for the dul witted. The location : >>>of the source at the moment of emission of the start : >>>of the wave is shown by that and its subsequent : >>>position at any time is shown by the black line. : >> : >> Jerry's animation is a joke... : > : >Then why can't you find a flaw in it? : : I have. The waves are not in phase at the emission point....simple! Not showing the correct wavelength from emission point to reception point either. : : > : >>>The distance they move is from the yellow line to the : >>>black line at the time the start of the wave reaches it. : >> : >> which is as I said above. : > : >Exactly, the animation already shows what : >you complained about. : : It doesn't include ring rotation speed. Aww, c'mon, it does. That's unfair. : : >>>It determines the relative phase hence the fringes. : >> : >> the travel times AND WAVELENGTHS are the same. the paths lengths are : >> different. : > : >And travel time determines phase. : : No George. In BaTh, 'wavelength' is absolute and path length difference alone : determines phase. : Jerry's animation uses rays that BEGIN out of phase. : Jerry doesn't include ring rotation speed and how it affects the umber of : wavelengths in each path. : You are both wrong. The travel time is the same for both rays in both rotating and stationary frames . The distance travelled in the rotating frame is the same for both rays. The distances travelled in the stationary frame are different. The wavelength in the rotating frame is the same for both rays. The wavelengths in the stationary frame are different. : >>>> wheel. There will still be 1000 marks on it no matter how fast it spins. : >>> : >>>Exactly. Think about it, one wave is emitted and moves : >>>at c relative to the source, so in time t=1/f is is : >>>ct = c/f ahead of the source when the next wave is : >>>emitted. That means they are c/f apart and that pattern : >>>moves round at a speed of c+v. : >> : >> George, we can use the linear analogy. : > : >Why not just look at the maths above. : > : >> ...........................................................................................................->c : >> A_____________________B : >> : >> The line of dots represents the wavecrests of a light ray moving at c. : >> A and B are the end points of a rigid rod. : >> : >> There are N dots between points A nd B, NO MATTER HOW fast the rod moves : >> past : >> them...or no matter how fast the light ray moves past the rod.. : >> : >> Next, let the position of B move by vt, where v is the speed of the rod : >> and t : >> is the time taken for a wavecrest to travel from A to B. Note, A, : >> representing : >> the source, does not move. : > : >Wrong, the source _does_ move, there is your error. : >You are as bad as Androcles only you want the : >source to be off the table. : : George, sorry if I said the wrong thing there. A is the emission pit rather : than the 'source'. The splitting mirror, ie., source, DOES move but the : emission point, A, does not. Correct. : >Just look at Jerry's simulation and try to find an : >error, there isn't one. : : the rays that end up in phase did not BEGIN in phase as required. Sematics. : Jerry is stupid... Correct.
From: Jerry on 9 Oct 2007 03:48
On Oct 7, 8:39 am, "Androcles" <Engin...(a)hogwarts.physics> wrote: > You won't see any fringe shift with the camera on > the table, except during acceleration. You'll see > a fringe, but it won't be shifted. What was his > exposure time? Did Georges Sagnac use slip rings to > operate the camera? You are absolutely correct. Ballistic theory predicts no fringe shift with the camera mounted on the turntable. SR, however, -does- predict a fringe shift, as do aether theories. Georges Sagnac's description of his experimental setup clearly indicates that the camera was mounted on the turntable. "The interferometer, already described briefly, is schematically illustrated in the figure: a horizontal rotary table (50 cm in diameter) carries, firmly screwed on it (the adjustment screws being secured by lock screws), all the optical parts as well as the source of light O, a small flashlight with a horizontal metal filament. A microscope objective C0 projects the image of this filament through a Nicol prism N onto the horizontal slit F in the focal plane of the collimating objective C; m is a reference mirror. The vertically (per Fresnel's convention) polarized parallel beam is divided by an air gap beam splitter J, as in the usual interferometer of my research (Comptes rendus, v. 150, p. 1676 (1910)), which I applied to the optical study of the movements of the Earth (Congress of Brussels, Sept. 1910, v. I, p. 207; Comptes rendus, v. 152, p. 310 (1911); Le Radium, 1911, p. 1): the beam T transmitted through the air gap J reflects successively on four mirrors M and traverses the closed loop Ja1a2a3a4J of area S. The beam R which the same air gap reflects traverses the same circuit in the opposite direction. Returning to J, the beam T, again transmitted, and the beam R, again reflected, are superimposed in the same direction along T2 and R2, and form interference fringes at the principal focus of the lens L on the fine-grained photographic plate pp'." - translated from G. Sagnac, Comptes Rendus de l'Academie des Sciences (Paris) 157, pp.1410-1413 (1913) Sagnac clearly states that the "rotary table...carries, firmly screwed on it...all the optical parts" This includes the lens and photographic plate. Jerry P.S. There are two places where I am very uncertain about the translation. Could you check them for me? 1] "the adjustment screws being secured by lock screws" This was my best guess as to the meaning, but I could very easily be wrong. 2] "m is a reference mirror." What in heck is a "reference mirror"? |