Sagnac Revisited. Why Paul, Tom and Jerry are Hopelessly Wrong.
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From: artful on 23 Feb 2010 23:12 On Feb 24, 2:28 pm, ..@..(Henry Wilson DSc) wrote: > On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:25:47 -0800 (PST), artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > >On Feb 24, 10:38 am, "Androcles" <Headmas...(a)Hogwarts.physics_u> > >wrote: > >> "Henry Wilson DSc" <..@..> wrote in messagenews:gje8o5103er0ujsidv54in2ujguh9uq4ub(a)4ax.com... > > >> > How many times per day does a spinning wheeled gyroscope rotate while it > >> > is > >> > sitting on your desk? > > >> "In future, when and only when you decide to say something intelligent will > >> I reply." -- Wilson > >>news:qp5mc5phvv2s02rtot41h3jpi25qbpo6pb(a)4ax.com > > >Of course .. unlike Henry .. I always have something intelligent to > >say. Obviously Henry somehow recognizes this .. and his utter hatred > >of logic and honesty means he has to reply with more lies and > >nonsense. Of course .. that just makes him look like a bigger fool > >with every post. > > Answer the question then if you're so bloody smart Far far smarter that you can ever hope to be. > ...and give me a rough answer > then a more accurate one. > > How many times per day does a mechanical gyroscope rotate around an axis > parallel to the polar axis while it is sitting on your desk? > Assume the spinning wheel axis is aligned with the equator. How can it be aligned with the equator if it is parallel to the polar axis. Do you think the equator is parallel to the polar axis? Also it would depends on how fast it is spinning .. you've not given the speed of rotation at all. Ignoring that, let's assume what you *meant* is we have a gyroscope located somewhere at the equator (say), with its axis aligned parallel with the earth's axis of rotation (*ignoring* earth's orbit around the sun etc for now). Even if it appears not to be spinning to an observer co-moving with it, in its non-inertial frame, it will rotate once (ignoring earth's orbit) per solar day in any inertial frame. If you want you can put it at one of the poles, and have the axis collinear with the Earth's axis of rotation. Of course, the rate will be slightly *more* than once per solar day if you take into account the orbit of the earth. That is because a 'solar day' is a bit more than 360 degrees of full rotation, so it does one 360 degrees rotation in less than a solar day (that's assuming a circular orbit at least) You'd need a further small adjustment for the orbit of the sun around the galactic center. Really, you need to be more careful about how you ask questions .. that one was rather sloppy .. and if you want to outsmart me, you'll need to try a little harder than that. Actually .. its beyond you, so don't bother .. you'll just embarrass yourself.
From: Henry Wilson DSc on 24 Feb 2010 00:12 On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 20:12:23 -0800 (PST), artful <artful_me(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >On Feb 24, 2:28�pm, ..@..(Henry Wilson DSc) wrote: >> On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:25:47 -0800 (PST), artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >> >On Feb 24, 10:38 am, "Androcles" <Headmas...(a)Hogwarts.physics_u> >> >> >Of course .. unlike Henry .. I always have something intelligent to >> >say. �Obviously Henry somehow recognizes this .. and his utter hatred >> >of logic and honesty means he has to reply with more lies and >> >nonsense. �Of course .. that just makes him look like a bigger fool >> >with every post. >> >> Answer the question then if you're so bloody smart > >Far far smarter that you can ever hope to be. > >> ...and give me a rough answer >> then a more accurate one. >> >> How many times per day does a mechanical gyroscope rotate around an axis >> parallel to the polar axis while it is sitting on your desk? >> Assume the spinning wheel axis is aligned with the equator. > >How can it be aligned with the equator if it is parallel to the polar >axis. Easily. >Do you think the equator is parallel to the polar axis? Do you know what a gyroscope is? > >Also it would depends on how fast it is spinning .. you've not given >the speed of rotation at all. It does not depend on the wheel speed. >Ignoring that, let's assume what you *meant* is we have a gyroscope >located somewhere at the equator (say), with its axis aligned parallel >with the earth's axis of rotation (*ignoring* earth's orbit around the >sun etc for now). A gyroscope has only one definable axis, that of the wheel shaft. I clearly stated that this axis is aligned with the equator. >Even if it appears not to be spinning to an observer co-moving with >it, in its non-inertial frame, it will rotate once (ignoring earth's >orbit) per solar day in any inertial frame. If you want you can put >it at one of the poles, and have the axis collinear with the Earth's >axis of rotation. > >Of course, the rate will be slightly *more* than once per solar day if >you take into account the orbit of the earth. That is because a >'solar day' is a bit more than 360 degrees of full rotation, so it >does one 360 degrees rotation in less than a solar day (that's >assuming a circular orbit at least) > >You'd need a further small adjustment for the orbit of the sun around >the galactic center. > >Really, you need to be more careful about how you ask questions .. >that one was rather sloppy .. and if you want to outsmart me, you'll >need to try a little harder than that. Actually .. its beyond you, so >don't bother .. you'll just embarrass yourself. In light of my above clarification, is your answer any different? Henry Wilson... ........provider of free physics lessons
From: artful on 24 Feb 2010 00:32 On Feb 24, 4:12 pm, ..@..(Henry Wilson DSc) wrote: > On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 20:12:23 -0800 (PST), artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > >On Feb 24, 2:28 pm, ..@..(Henry Wilson DSc) wrote: > >> On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:25:47 -0800 (PST), artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > >> >On Feb 24, 10:38 am, "Androcles" <Headmas...(a)Hogwarts.physics_u> > > >> >Of course .. unlike Henry .. I always have something intelligent to > >> >say. Obviously Henry somehow recognizes this .. and his utter hatred > >> >of logic and honesty means he has to reply with more lies and > >> >nonsense. Of course .. that just makes him look like a bigger fool > >> >with every post. > > >> Answer the question then if you're so bloody smart > > >Far far smarter that you can ever hope to be. > > >> ...and give me a rough answer > >> then a more accurate one. > > >> How many times per day does a mechanical gyroscope rotate around an axis > >> parallel to the polar axis while it is sitting on your desk? > >> Assume the spinning wheel axis is aligned with the equator. > > >How can it be aligned with the equator if it is parallel to the polar > >axis. > > Easily. Nope the equator and polar axis are not parallel .. the axis cannot be aligned in two different directions at once > >Do you think the equator is parallel to the polar axis? > > Do you know what a gyroscope is? Yes.. do you? > >Also it would depends on how fast it is spinning .. you've not given > >the speed of rotation at all. > > It does not depend on the wheel speed. So the speed of rotation does not depend on the speed that it spins. Fascinating > >Ignoring that, let's assume what you *meant* is we have a gyroscope > >located somewhere at the equator (say), with its axis aligned parallel > >with the earth's axis of rotation (*ignoring* earth's orbit around the > >sun etc for now). > > A gyroscope has only one definable axis, that of the wheel shaft. Yes .. I never said otherwise > I clearly stated that this axis is aligned with the equator. You clearly said it was parallel to the polar axis .. and the equator .. it can't be both so I chose the polar axis, as I satated > >Even if it appears not to be spinning to an observer co-moving with > >it, in its non-inertial frame, it will rotate once (ignoring earth's > >orbit) per solar day in any inertial frame. If you want you can put > >it at one of the poles, and have the axis collinear with the Earth's > >axis of rotation. > > >Of course, the rate will be slightly *more* than once per solar day if > >you take into account the orbit of the earth. That is because a > >'solar day' is a bit more than 360 degrees of full rotation, so it > >does one 360 degrees rotation in less than a solar day (that's > >assuming a circular orbit at least) > > >You'd need a further small adjustment for the orbit of the sun around > >the galactic center. > > >Really, you need to be more careful about how you ask questions .. > >that one was rather sloppy .. and if you want to outsmart me, you'll > >need to try a little harder than that. Actually .. its beyond you, so > >don't bother .. you'll just embarrass yourself. > > In light of my above clarification, is your answer any different? You've not really clarified anything .. just lied some more. But that is probably what counts as clarification for you. So .. let's clear things up, as your description was (and remains) very sloppy and self-contradictory. Where on earth is the gyroscope located .. at a (rotational) pole? at the equator? Where is its axis (thru the centre of its spinning wheel that is) .. is it radially outward from the centre of the earth (so sitting upright), is it parallel to the earth's axis of rotation (so it is sitting on its side if it is at the equator, or upright if at the pole), is it parallel with the equator (also sitting on its side) Are you talking about the rotation of the gyroscope as a whole as a single entire device, or of the wheel inside the gyroscope?
From: Henry Wilson DSc on 24 Feb 2010 00:48 On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:32:03 -0800 (PST), artful <artful_me(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >On Feb 24, 4:12�pm, ..@..(Henry Wilson DSc) wrote: >> On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 20:12:23 -0800 (PST), artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >> >> >Of course .. unlike Henry .. I always have something intelligent to >> >> >say. �Obviously Henry somehow recognizes this .. and his utter hatred >> >> >of logic and honesty means he has to reply with more lies and >> >> >nonsense. �Of course .. that just makes him look like a bigger fool >> >> >with every post. >> >> >> Answer the question then if you're so bloody smart >> >> >Far far smarter that you can ever hope to be. >> >> >> ...and give me a rough answer >> >> then a more accurate one. >> >> >> How many times per day does a mechanical gyroscope rotate around an axis >> >> parallel to the polar axis while it is sitting on your desk? >> >> Assume the spinning wheel axis is aligned with the equator. >> >> >How can it be aligned with the equator if it is parallel to the polar >> >axis. � >> >> Easily. > >Nope the equator and polar axis are not parallel .. the axis cannot >be aligned in two different directions at once It is aligned with th equator. >> >Do you think the equator is parallel to the polar axis? >> >> Do you know what a gyroscope is? > >Yes.. do you? > >> >Also it would depends on how fast it is spinning .. you've not given >> >the speed of rotation at all. >> >> It does not depend on the wheel speed. > >So the speed of rotation does not depend on the speed that it spins. >Fascinating The rotation of the gyroscope body around an axis parallel to the polar axis does not depend on the wheel's rotation speed around the wheel's equatorial spin axis. >> >Ignoring that, let's assume what you *meant* is we have a gyroscope >> >located somewhere at the equator (say), with its axis aligned parallel >> >with the earth's axis of rotation (*ignoring* earth's orbit around the >> >sun etc for now). >> >> A gyroscope has only one definable axis, that of the wheel shaft. > >Yes .. I never said otherwise you never said anything wise... >> I clearly stated that this axis is aligned with the equator. > >You clearly said it was parallel to the polar axis .. Dont lie. >and the >equator .. it can't be both so I chose the polar axis, as I satated > >> >Even if it appears not to be spinning to an observer co-moving with >> >it, in its non-inertial frame, it will rotate once (ignoring earth's >> >orbit) per solar day in any inertial frame. �If you want you can put >> >it at one of the poles, and have the axis collinear with the Earth's >> >axis of rotation. >> >> >Of course, the rate will be slightly *more* than once per solar day if >> >you take into account the orbit of the earth. �That is because a >> >'solar day' is a bit more than 360 degrees of full rotation, so it >> >does one 360 degrees rotation in less than a solar day (that's >> >assuming a circular orbit at least) >> >> >You'd need a further small adjustment for the orbit of the sun around >> >the galactic center. >> >> >Really, you need to be more careful about how you ask questions .. >> >that one was rather sloppy .. and if you want to outsmart me, you'll >> >need to try a little harder than that. �Actually .. its beyond you, so >> >don't bother .. you'll just embarrass yourself. >> >> In light of my above clarification, is your answer any different? > >You've not really clarified anything .. just lied some more. But that >is probably what counts as clarification for you. > >So .. let's clear things up, as your description was (and remains) >very sloppy and self-contradictory. > >Where on earth is the gyroscope located .. at a (rotational) pole? at >the equator? The equator will do nicely. >Where is its axis (thru the centre of its spinning wheel that is) .. Parallel with the equator at that location, like I clearly said. >is it radially outward from the centre of the earth (so sitting >upright), is it parallel to the earth's axis of rotation (so it is >sitting on its side if it is at the equator, or upright if at the >pole), is it parallel with the equator (also sitting on its side) It is on the equator and the wheel's axis of rotation is aligned in 2D with the equator at that point. That is unambiguous. >Are you talking about the rotation of the gyroscope as a whole as a >single entire device, or of the wheel inside the gyroscope? as a whole. Henry Wilson... ........provider of free physics lessons
From: artful on 24 Feb 2010 00:59
On Feb 24, 4:32 pm, artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > On Feb 24, 4:12 pm, ..@..(Henry Wilson DSc) wrote: > > > > > > > On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 20:12:23 -0800 (PST), artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > >On Feb 24, 2:28 pm, ..@..(Henry Wilson DSc) wrote: > > >> On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:25:47 -0800 (PST), artful <artful...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > >> >On Feb 24, 10:38 am, "Androcles" <Headmas...(a)Hogwarts.physics_u> > > > >> >Of course .. unlike Henry .. I always have something intelligent to > > >> >say. Obviously Henry somehow recognizes this .. and his utter hatred > > >> >of logic and honesty means he has to reply with more lies and > > >> >nonsense. Of course .. that just makes him look like a bigger fool > > >> >with every post. > > > >> Answer the question then if you're so bloody smart > > > >Far far smarter that you can ever hope to be. > > > >> ...and give me a rough answer > > >> then a more accurate one. > > > >> How many times per day does a mechanical gyroscope rotate around an axis > > >> parallel to the polar axis while it is sitting on your desk? > > >> Assume the spinning wheel axis is aligned with the equator. > > > >How can it be aligned with the equator if it is parallel to the polar > > >axis. > > > Easily. > > Nope the equator and polar axis are not parallel .. the axis cannot > be aligned in two different directions at once > > > >Do you think the equator is parallel to the polar axis? > > > Do you know what a gyroscope is? > > Yes.. do you? > > > >Also it would depends on how fast it is spinning .. you've not given > > >the speed of rotation at all. > > > It does not depend on the wheel speed. > > So the speed of rotation does not depend on the speed that it spins. > Fascinating > > > >Ignoring that, let's assume what you *meant* is we have a gyroscope > > >located somewhere at the equator (say), with its axis aligned parallel > > >with the earth's axis of rotation (*ignoring* earth's orbit around the > > >sun etc for now). > > > A gyroscope has only one definable axis, that of the wheel shaft. > > Yes .. I never said otherwise > > > I clearly stated that this axis is aligned with the equator. > > You clearly said it was parallel to the polar axis .. and the > equator .. it can't be both so I chose the polar axis, as I satated > > > > > > > >Even if it appears not to be spinning to an observer co-moving with > > >it, in its non-inertial frame, it will rotate once (ignoring earth's > > >orbit) per solar day in any inertial frame. If you want you can put > > >it at one of the poles, and have the axis collinear with the Earth's > > >axis of rotation. > > > >Of course, the rate will be slightly *more* than once per solar day if > > >you take into account the orbit of the earth. That is because a > > >'solar day' is a bit more than 360 degrees of full rotation, so it > > >does one 360 degrees rotation in less than a solar day (that's > > >assuming a circular orbit at least) > > > >You'd need a further small adjustment for the orbit of the sun around > > >the galactic center. > > > >Really, you need to be more careful about how you ask questions .. > > >that one was rather sloppy .. and if you want to outsmart me, you'll > > >need to try a little harder than that. Actually .. its beyond you, so > > >don't bother .. you'll just embarrass yourself. > > > In light of my above clarification, is your answer any different? > > You've not really clarified anything .. just lied some more. But that > is probably what counts as clarification for you. > > So .. let's clear things up, as your description was (and remains) > very sloppy and self-contradictory. > > Where on earth is the gyroscope located .. at a (rotational) pole? at > the equator? > > Where is its axis (thru the centre of its spinning wheel that is) .. > is it radially outward from the centre of the earth (so sitting > upright), is it parallel to the earth's axis of rotation (so it is > sitting on its side if it is at the equator, or upright if at the > pole), is it parallel with the equator (also sitting on its side) > > Are you talking about the rotation of the gyroscope as a whole as a > single entire device, or of the wheel inside the gyroscope? While I'm waiting .. I'll take another guess at what you're on about. The gyroscope is located at the equator, with its spinning-wheel axis aligned tangentially to the equator (ie the wheel is spinning in what appears to be a vertical plane thru the earth's poles around a horizontal axis, according to a co-moving earthbound observer) The gyroscope frame will rotate with the earth (just over) 360 degrees in a day. But will appear to not rotate to a co-moving earthbound observer. The wheel and its axle will remain with a fixed orientation in any inertial frame. So to a co-moving earthbound observer, the wheel+axle appears to be rotating from having a horizontal axis, to vertical, around to horizontal in the opposite direction, and then vertical in the opposite direction and finally back to its original orientation. So according to them it appears to make (just over) one rotation in a day. So the earthbound observer sees the gyroscope wheel mechanism rotate (just over) once in a day, and the gyroscope frame remain stationary. An inertial observer sees the gyroscope wheel mechanism with fixed orientation and the gyroscope frame rotate (just over) once in a day. |